The Hardest Day

[kallend 1,621]

75 years ago today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hardest_Day

World would be a very different place if it had gone the other way.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[aphid 0]

Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour".

kallend

75 years ago today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hardest_Day

World would be a very different place if it had gone the other way.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Quote

'Never in the field of human conflict has so much been owed by so many to so few'

- Churchill

Of course, some of the technical advantages in C&C and early warning (noted in the linked article) gave the Brits some advantages.

The lack of a heavy bomber in the German arsenal was also a big factor. If they had possessed anything on the scale of a B-17 or B-24, the outcome would probably have been far different. The Ju-88, He-11 & Me-110 were very cool planes, but they didn't have the payload to pack a truly "big punch."

Interestingly, they found a bomb in London last week. Those sorts of things show up every now and then.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

If they had possessed anything on the scale of a B-17 or B-24

Actually the standard payload of the B-17 vs He 111 was almost identical. Due to it's huge defensive armament the B-17 carried a very small payload for its size. The reason they did so much damage was because there were so many of them. The Lancaster or the Halifax on the other hand - those things carried some big bombs.

The biggest factor in the BoB may well have been the RAF's august 1940 raid on Berlin. Hitler's pride was so damaged he shifted the Luftwaffe's focus from RAF airfields and military defences to the blitz on London, Coventry and other cities. Some historians estimate the RAF would have been effectively grounded, giving Germany total air superiority, if the original plan had been followed for another week to two weeks.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[winsor 186]

kallend

75 years ago today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hardest_Day

World would be a very different place if it had gone the other way.

The fact that Dowding and Lord Beaverbrook were sacked for their efforts is appalling. Trenchard and Harris were furious that anyone should operate contrary to Douhet's orthodoxy.

Nevertheless, good show by Fighter Command.


BSBD,

Winsor

[billvon 2,384]

> Due to it's huge defensive armament the B-17 carried a very small payload for
>its size.

Early on in the war there was a study done on bombers (I believe it was the Lancaster, not the B-17) that looked at what could be done to improve survivability and mission success. The most promising method involved removing all the guns, covering and streamlining all the fuselage openings, combining some control stations and adding some armor under the remaining crew (4.) This would have:

-improved its maximum speed by 25-30 knots after bomb release
-improved its climb speed significantly after bomb release
-increased bomb loads
-increased crew survival

Estimates indicated that performance would be improved so significantly that the bombers could be back to the channel after hitting most targets in Germany before a fighter (launched at the time of the bombing) could catch up with the bombers.

However, this went contrary to the spirit of the times, which was that a team of fighting men would defend their bomber from the Germans. Thus this was not pursued.

[jakee 1,254]

Then you get something like the Mosquito. Still had an 1800kg bomb load, was as much as 170mph faster than a B-17 and was equally capable of low level precision attacks (like, blowing up the wall of a prison in Paris) as high altitude bombing runs. Didn't have as long a range as a true heavy bomber, but the concept certainly could have been enlarged.

"Mosquitos were widely used by the RAF Pathfinder Force, marking targets for the main night-time strategic bombing force, as well as flying "nuisance raids" in which Mosquitos often dropped 4,000 lb "Cookies". Despite an initially high loss rate, the Mosquito ended the war with the lowest losses of any aircraft in RAF Bomber Command service. Post war, the RAF found that when finally applied to bombing, in terms of useful damage done, the Mosquito had proved 4.95 times cheaper than the Lancaster."

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 1,621]

billvon

> Due to it's huge defensive armament the B-17 carried a very small payload for
>its size.

Early on in the war there was a study done on bombers (I believe it was the Lancaster, not the B-17) that looked at what could be done to improve survivability and mission success. The most promising method involved removing all the guns, covering and streamlining all the fuselage openings, combining some control stations and adding some armor under the remaining crew (4.) This would have:

-improved its maximum speed by 25-30 knots after bomb release
-improved its climb speed significantly after bomb release
-increased bomb loads
-increased crew survival

Estimates indicated that performance would be improved so significantly that the bombers could be back to the channel after hitting most targets in Germany before a fighter (launched at the time of the bombing) could catch up with the bombers.

However, this went contrary to the spirit of the times, which was that a team of fighting men would defend their bomber from the Germans. Thus this was not pursued.

DeHavilland Mosquito B.

Performance

Maximum speed: 361 kn (415 mph (668 km/h)) at 28,000 ft (8,500 m)
Range: 1,300 nmi (1,500 mi (2,400 km)) with full weapons load
Service ceiling: 37,000 ft (11,000 m)
Rate of climb: 2,850 ft/min (14.5 m/s)
Wing loading: 39.9 lb/ft2 (195 kg/m2)
Power/mass: 0.189 hp/lb (311 W/kg)
Armament: Bombs: 4,000 pounds (1,800 kg)

In one example of the daylight precision raids carried out by the Mosquito, on 20 January 1943, the 10th anniversary of the Nazis' seizure of power, a Mosquito attack knocked out the main Berlin broadcasting station while Commander in Chief Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring was speaking, putting his speech off air.[161] Göring himself had strong views about the Mosquito, lecturing a group of German aircraft manufacturers in 1943 that:

In 1940 I could at least fly as far as Glasgow in most of my aircraft, but not now! It makes me furious when I see the Mosquito. I turn green and yellow with envy. The British, who can afford aluminium better than we can, knock together a beautiful wooden aircraft that every piano factory over there is building, and they give it a speed which they have now increased yet again. What do you make of that? There is nothing the British do not have. They have the geniuses and we have the nincompoops. After the war is over I'm going to buy a British radio set - then at least I'll own something that has always worked

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,621]

Video from Biggin Hill of the anniversary fly-past of Spitfires and Hurricanes.

youtu.be/h0X0fYZHhzE

(Now a commercial reliever airport for London, Biggin Hill was a fighter station in WWII).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[cengland 0]

Of all the a/c developed during WW2 the HO 229 Stealth Bomber is still my favourite.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198112/Sleek-swift-deadly--Hitlers-stealth-bomber-turned-tide-Britain.html

[brenthutch 383]

jakee

Then you get something like the Mosquito. Still had an 1800kg bomb load, was as much as 170mph faster than a B-17 and was equally capable of low level precision attacks (like, blowing up the wall of a prison in Paris) as high altitude bombing runs. Didn't have as long a range as a true heavy bomber, but the concept certainly could have been enlarged.

"Mosquitos were widely used by the RAF Pathfinder Force, marking targets for the main night-time strategic bombing force, as well as flying "nuisance raids" in which Mosquitos often dropped 4,000 lb "Cookies". Despite an initially high loss rate, the Mosquito ended the war with the lowest losses of any aircraft in RAF Bomber Command service. Post war, the RAF found that when finally applied to bombing, in terms of useful damage done, the Mosquito had proved 4.95 times cheaper than the Lancaster."

++++1 huge fan of the Mosquito, brilliant machine!!

[kallend 1,621]

cengland

Of all the a/c developed during WW2 the HO 229 Stealth Bomber is still my favourite.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198112/Sleek-swift-deadly--Hitlers-stealth-bomber-turned-tide-Britain.html

Except it was never test flown with engines, and was still years away from production by the end of the war.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rifleman 61]

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-plane-that-saved-britain

Well worth a watch!

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[cengland 0]

Yes it was flown with engines but the fall of Nazi Germany shut the program down.

The first flight of the H.IX V2 was made in Oranienburg on 2 February 1945.

All subsequent test flights and development were done by Gothaer Waggonfabrik. By this time, the Horten brothers were working on a turbojet-powered design for the Amerika Bomber contract competition and did not attend the first test flight. The test pilot was Leutnant Erwin Ziller. Two further test flights were made between 2 and 18 February 1945. Another test pilot used in the evaluation was Heinz Scheidhauer.

The H.IX V2 reportedly displayed very good handling qualities, with only moderate lateral instability (a typical deficiency of tailless aircraft). While the second flight was equally successful, the undercarriage was damaged by a heavy landing caused by Ziller deploying the brake parachute too early during his landing approach. There are reports that during one of these test flights, the H.IX V2 undertook a simulated "dog-fight" with a Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter, and that the H.IX V2 outperformed the Me 262.

Two weeks later, on 18 February 1945, disaster struck during the third test flight. Ziller took off without any problems to perform a series of flight tests. After about 45 minutes, at an altitude of around 800 m, one of the Jumo 004 turbojet engines developed a problem, caught fire and stopped. Ziller was seen to put the aircraft into a dive and pull up several times in an attempt to restart the engine and save the precious prototype.[4] Ziller undertook a series of 4 complete turns at 20° angle of bank. Ziller did not use his radio or eject from the aircraft. He may already have been unconscious as a result of the fumes from the burning engine. The aircraft crashed just outside the boundary of the airfield. Ziller was thrown from the aircraft on impact and died from his injuries two weeks later. The prototype aircraft was completely destroyed.[4]