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kallend

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There is a difference in standing between someone who had their gall bladder removed and the Head of Surgery at Johns Hopkins, or between a Camaro owner and the Chief Design Engineer at Chevrolet.



There is also a difference between being an expert regarding firearm ballistics and one regarding firearm policy. Being a expert in one doesn't make you an expert in the other.

We aren't talking about bullet ballistics here, your area of expertise, we are talking about policy. In that you are no more expert that anyone else in this forum.

- Dan G

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I think it would be great if we had an actual psychologist or psychiatrist to join in. And thinking that made me think about something else. When it comes to jobs and backgrounds skydiving is a very mixed bag. A D18 load at Ravenswood would include a telephone repairman, a guy who works at an aluminum plant, a couple of military types who were experts in their fields, a heart surgeon, a guy who lived in his car, coal miners and so on.
But I can't remember every jumping with a psychologist. Is this just a coincidence for me or does something about The Sport keep them away? I know a couple of psychiatrists who fly their own planes but none that are open to the idea of exiting one.

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winsor

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If someone opines on a subject with which I am intimately familiar, such that it is clear they have no Idea about what they are talking, don't expect me to treat them as credible. Suffice it to say that we are certain to disagree.




You are intimately familiar with firearms, and the laws governing them in the USA. You have no familiarity with having one of your children fall victim to random gun violence. Or with the advantages countries with reasonable gun laws enjoy. Like not having motorists waving firearms at them in road rage incidents.



Oddly enough, I do have a marked familiarity with random violence that drops children, have lived in sundry countries that have laws that I suspect you would term 'reasonable.'

I have been spared any incidents involving motorists waving firearms in road rage incidents; the only motorists that have ever made firearms known in my experience have been cops, and I have had the odd submachine gun stuck in my face (as I GINGERLY pulled out my passport...). I don't count the .380 slug that hit my windshield, since it was from long enough range to be arbitrary.

Your guess regarding my familiarity is entirely wrong. Should I trust your instincts about much of anything else?

And yet you would think such an esteemed scientist like yourself would understand that anecdote and data are not the same thing.

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Oddly enough, I do have a marked familiarity with random violence that drops children, have lived in sundry countries that have laws that I suspect you would term 'reasonable.'

I have been spared any incidents involving motorists waving firearms in road rage incidents; the only motorists that have ever made firearms known in my experience have been cops, and I have had the odd submachine gun stuck in my face (as I GINGERLY pulled out my passport...). I don't count the .380 slug that hit my windshield, since it was from long enough range to be arbitrary.

Your guess regarding my familiarity is entirely wrong. Should I trust your instincts about much of anything else?





My research indicates your experience with gun laws and police stops is a little deeper than you like to talk about.

https://law.justia.com/cases/ohio/twelfth-district-court-of-appeals/2005/2005-ohio-6274.html
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Bob_Church

I think it would be great if we had an actual psychologist or psychiatrist to join in.



I've linked a few articles from the mental health field, I have yet to see one that says they can diagnose the at large US population for their likelihood in misusing a firearm. They can recommend treatment because of past actions and the fact that they're undergoing that treatment kicks them into state/fed law restrictions. Their interest is treating mental illness not getting into the business of who can or can't own/possess/transport a firearm. I think we've adequately covered the idea of the US government overseeing anything of this nature.

Here are the state by state laws: http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx

Views of American Psychiatric Association's president, Dr. Renee Binder: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-isnt-golden/201510/top-psychiatrists-stunning-announcement-about-gun-violence

Mass Shootings and Mental Illness: https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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DJL

***I think it would be great if we had an actual psychologist or psychiatrist to join in.



I've linked a few articles from the mental health field, I have yet to see one that says they can diagnose the at large US population for their likelihood in misusing a firearm. They can recommend treatment because of past actions and the fact that they're undergoing that treatment kicks them into state/fed law restrictions. Their interest is treating mental illness not getting into the business of who can or can't own/possess/transport a firearm. I think we've adequately covered the idea of the US government overseeing anything of this nature.

Here are the state by state laws: http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx

Views of American Psychiatric Association's president, Dr. Renee Binder: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-isnt-golden/201510/top-psychiatrists-stunning-announcement-about-gun-violence

Mass Shootings and Mental Illness: https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099

I think having a PT (psychiatric type, I hate retyping this stuff) on the list during these discussions could help a lot. As you say, if I'm reading you correctly, a lot of the things we suggest are just way beyond realistic.
Imagine a group of PTs trying to come up with new methods of counseling. They discover that by spending 20 minutes with someone in a wind tunnel they can reach them at a deep level, but not quite deep enough. Something like that. So they decide that the next step is to exit an aircraft and spend 20 minutes using the same mental exercises as in the wind tunnel. And they go ahead and put a lot of time and thought into this. One skydiver saying "that's physically impossible" would have saved them a lot of time wasted on a dead end.

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gowlerk

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Oddly enough, I do have a marked familiarity with random violence that drops children, have lived in sundry countries that have laws that I suspect you would term 'reasonable.'

I have been spared any incidents involving motorists waving firearms in road rage incidents; the only motorists that have ever made firearms known in my experience have been cops, and I have had the odd submachine gun stuck in my face (as I GINGERLY pulled out my passport...). I don't count the .380 slug that hit my windshield, since it was from long enough range to be arbitrary.

Your guess regarding my familiarity is entirely wrong. Should I trust your instincts about much of anything else?





My research indicates your experience with gun laws and police stops is a little deeper than you like to talk about.

https://law.justia.com/cases/ohio/twelfth-district-court-of-appeals/2005/2005-ohio-6274.html



It's been done, Sparky.

Ohio had passed legislation recognizing Concealed Carry by a a veto-proof margin. It turns out that the Governor dragged his feet in signing it into law.

I was subject to SWATing by someone who took umbrage at having to maintain the speed limit for the time it took me to pass a truck. Two lanes, truck limit 55, auto limit 65 and I stay to the right except when passing - particularly with out-of-state plates in Ohio.

The one vague call, which mostly complained about being "cut off," spawned a chorus of versions in the retelling, and the Court of Appeals took as gospel the ad-lib compilation of the Prosecution.

The only thing missing is "once upon a time..."

I was licensed to carry CONCEALED for a quarter of a century, and I was charged with having a CONCEALED firearm. Ironically enough, my credentials were acceptable in Ohio by the time I went to trial.

There is a reason hearsay is largely inadmissible, but this issue was skirted was because charges related to failing to carry concealed were never brought.

For what it's worth, should you actually accuse me without prosecutorial immunity, I could sue you for Libel (only $1, don't sweat it) and actually have due process regarding the most lurid of the accusations. This would be the basis for making the whole thing go away, so you'd be doing me a favor.

Anytime you're ready.

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I don't really care if you are a convicted felon or not. And I'm not interested in the tawdry details of your attempt to defend yourself from the accusation that you waved your firearm at a motorist in a road rage incident. Did you have to serve the time you were sentenced to, or did you manage to lawyer your way out of it?

I am beginning to think that perhaps you are one of those raving gun nuts that people are warned about. Even if you are a very intelligent and highly educated one.

The main point is that the rules made by mediocre people apply to all. Even obviously superior people like you. Because you have a temper and I would not trust you with a gun when you are angry. But you are not alone. There are lots of people with tempers. That is why nearly every country doesn't put up with average mediocre citizens, or even extraordinary ones walking around with killing machines in their pocket.

And, I am not accusing you of anything. I'm just quoting the record of your conviction of a gun crime. As far as your threat of legal action against me goes, just like you say, anytime you're ready.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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winsor

***

Quote

If someone opines on a subject with which I am intimately familiar, such that it is clear they have no Idea about what they are talking, don't expect me to treat them as credible. Suffice it to say that we are certain to disagree.




You are intimately familiar with firearms, and the laws governing them in the USA. You have no familiarity with having one of your children fall victim to random gun violence. Or with the advantages countries with reasonable gun laws enjoy. Like not having motorists waving firearms at them in road rage incidents.



Oddly enough, I do have a marked familiarity with random violence that drops children, have lived in sundry countries that have laws that I suspect you would term 'reasonable.'

I have been spared any incidents involving motorists waving firearms in road rage incidents; the only motorists that have ever made firearms known in my experience have been cops, and I have had the odd submachine gun stuck in my face (as I GINGERLY pulled out my passport...). I don't count the .380 slug that hit my windshield, since it was from long enough range to be arbitrary.

Your guess regarding my familiarity is entirely wrong. Should I trust your instincts about much of anything else?

O.K., I'll bite. "the odd submachine gun stuck in my face (as I GINGERLY pulled out my passport...)" How old are you, Mr. Winsor? I'm 64 and the only time I've had the experience it was called an assault rifle and there was no offer that I do anything gingerly. Also, a .380 slug is a bit of a pop whistle round as you surely are aware. Good for inside the car but if it didn't penetrate your windshield from afar then I suspect it would have just bounced off. Please tell the story.

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riggerrob

Mental health is a valid reason for restricting access to guns.

Since my father was diagnosed with altzheimer’s - a few years back - police took away his driver’s license. My brothers have been quietly selling off his guns.

A few years back I was diagnosed with PTSD and severely depressed during an 8-year-long court battle, workplace bullying, 15 months unemployment, repeated retraumatization, intimidation inside court, intimidation outside court, delayed knee surgery, infection, swollen leg, deep vein thrombosis, inability to buy prescription medication, too poor to buy food, impending eviction, etc. I was too poor to buy a bullet! I contemplated suicide, but concluded suicide would be an admission that bullies in silk robes had gotten the better of me. I am too stubborn to allow lawyers to win!



Here in the UK, as part of the application process for a firearms licence, you are required to consent to having a medical. The written consent for this also includes a mandatory reporting clause that states that you understand and are giving permission for your doctor to inform the police if you are diagnosed with any psychiatric, mental health or physical condition which would affect your fitness to possess a firearm.
Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

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JoeWeber


O.K., I'll bite. "the odd submachine gun stuck in my face (as I GINGERLY pulled out my passport...)" How old are you, Mr. Winsor? I'm 64 and the only time I've had the experience it was called an assault rifle and there was no offer that I do anything gingerly. Also, a .380 slug is a bit of a pop whistle round as you surely are aware. Good for inside the car but if it didn't penetrate your windshield from afar then I suspect it would have just bounced off. Please tell the story.



We're contemporaries.

On the German side of the frontier I had my first close up look at the business end of a Heckler & Koch MP-5, in Belgium the Gendarmes had Uzis. Both are 9x19mm submachine guns/Maschinepistolen.

The Baader-Meinhof group was very active at the time, and folks were way skittish. The German did say "Pass, bitte," so he wasn't being mean, but I pulled my passport out without any sudden movement.

The windshield was hit North of Baltimore on I-95 and you're right, it did not penetrate, but it impacted enough to leave a clear impression of the projectile. The crater was a round profile that measured 0.355, the very round nose ruled out a 9mm Parabellum of any description, and was too small for a 0.365 9mm Russian/Makarov. The terminal ballistics and bullet shape of much of any .38/.357 was ruled out as well.

My suspicion is that it was an inadvertent discharge, since the trajectory appeared to be over the tree line.

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SkyDekker

And yet you would think such an esteemed scientist like yourself would understand that anecdote and data are not the same thing.



He insinuates having a "VERY extensive professional credentials in various subjects", but those "various subjects" seem to not include statistics.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

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winsor

For what it's worth, should you actually accuse me without prosecutorial immunity, I could sue you for Libel (only $1, don't sweat it) and actually have due process regarding the most lurid of the accusations. This would be the basis for making the whole thing go away, so you'd be doing me a favor.

Anytime you're ready.



Interesting how that legal expertise didn't help win the appeal, or with avoidance of committing a crime to begin with.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

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winsor

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O.K., I'll bite. "the odd submachine gun stuck in my face (as I GINGERLY pulled out my passport...)" How old are you, Mr. Winsor? I'm 64 and the only time I've had the experience it was called an assault rifle and there was no offer that I do anything gingerly. Also, a .380 slug is a bit of a pop whistle round as you surely are aware. Good for inside the car but if it didn't penetrate your windshield from afar then I suspect it would have just bounced off. Please tell the story.



We're contemporaries.

On the German side of the frontier I had my first close up look at the business end of a Heckler & Koch MP-5, in Belgium the Gendarmes had Uzis. Both are 9x19mm submachine guns/Maschinepistolen.

The Baader-Meinhof group was very active at the time, and folks were way skittish. The German did say "Pass, bitte," so he wasn't being mean, but I pulled my passport out without any sudden movement.

The windshield was hit North of Baltimore on I-95 and you're right, it did not penetrate, but it impacted enough to leave a clear impression of the projectile. The crater was a round profile that measured 0.355, the very round nose ruled out a 9mm Parabellum of any description, and was too small for a 0.365 9mm Russian/Makarov. The terminal ballistics and bullet shape of much of any .38/.357 was ruled out as well.

My suspicion is that it was an inadvertent discharge, since the trajectory appeared to be over the tree line.

O.K., it was a slight exaggeration to make a point. Billvon does that to people. Had the officer used the form "du" I might believe that the weapon didn't stay across his chest. Certainly, it did. As he used the form "bitte" you were actually much closer to a reach around than an execution. All is well that ends well. If it were my windshield, I'd have called State Farm and gone drinking before all of that forensic measuring but that's just me.

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rifleman

***Mental health is a valid reason for restricting access to guns.

Since my father was diagnosed with altzheimer’s - a few years back - police took away his driver’s license. My brothers have been quietly selling off his guns.

A few years back I was diagnosed with PTSD and severely depressed during an 8-year-long court battle, workplace bullying, 15 months unemployment, repeated retraumatization, intimidation inside court, intimidation outside court, delayed knee surgery, infection, swollen leg, deep vein thrombosis, inability to buy prescription medication, too poor to buy food, impending eviction, etc. I was too poor to buy a bullet! I contemplated suicide, but concluded suicide would be an admission that bullies in silk robes had gotten the better of me. I am too stubborn to allow lawyers to win!



Here in the UK, as part of the application process for a firearms licence, you are required to consent to having a medical. The written consent for this also includes a mandatory reporting clause that states that you understand and are giving permission for your doctor to inform the police if you are diagnosed with any psychiatric, mental health or physical condition which would affect your fitness to possess a firearm.

But that still only applies to a gun that you get legally. Most people who do these mass shootings don't seem to plan on surviving it anyway so what's one more theft?

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Bob_Church

******Mental health is a valid reason for restricting access to guns.

Since my father was diagnosed with altzheimer’s - a few years back - police took away his driver’s license. My brothers have been quietly selling off his guns.

A few years back I was diagnosed with PTSD and severely depressed during an 8-year-long court battle, workplace bullying, 15 months unemployment, repeated retraumatization, intimidation inside court, intimidation outside court, delayed knee surgery, infection, swollen leg, deep vein thrombosis, inability to buy prescription medication, too poor to buy food, impending eviction, etc. I was too poor to buy a bullet! I contemplated suicide, but concluded suicide would be an admission that bullies in silk robes had gotten the better of me. I am too stubborn to allow lawyers to win!



Here in the UK, as part of the application process for a firearms licence, you are required to consent to having a medical. The written consent for this also includes a mandatory reporting clause that states that you understand and are giving permission for your doctor to inform the police if you are diagnosed with any psychiatric, mental health or physical condition which would affect your fitness to possess a firearm.

But that still only applies to a gun that you get legally. Most people who do these mass shootings don't seem to plan on surviving it anyway so what's one more theft?

The problem is that, in the UK, you need a valid firearms certificate to purchase anything firearms related - ammunition, reloading components, firearms and all sales are recorded. The certificate also lists what firearms you own and their serial numbers as well. Buy or sell a weapon and you have to report it, have the certificate amended and give the police the FAC number and details of the purchaser.

Because of two events, Dunblane and Hungerford, we have quite severe restrictions on what we can shoot - no handguns (unless they have a 12" barrel and a permanently attached counterweight), shotguns restricted to a maximum of 3 rounds (2 in the magazine, 1 in the breech), no semi-automatic rifles (unless chambered for .22LR) and no restrictions on bolt-action rifles. You also have to have "good cause" to possess said firearms which is usually membership of a shooting club (usually at least 6 months before you apply for the FAC).
Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

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The GOP now has a fifth cause of gun violence in schools. (None, of course, have anything to do with the easy availability of guns.) From Texas we already learned that:

-video games
-too many doors
-not enough Jesus in schools
-abortion

causes gun violence.

Now from Rep. Diane Black of Tennessee we have the latest scapegoat that has nothing to do with guns.

"Why do we see kids being so violent? What's out there? What makes them do that? Because, as a nurse, I go back to root cause. And I think it's a couple things. . .Pornography. It's available. It's available on the shelf when you walk in the grocery store. Yeah, you have to reach up to get it, but there's pornography there. All of this is available without parental guidance. And I think that's a big part of the root cause, that we see so many young people that have mental illness get caught in these places."

So video games, too many doors, abortion, not enough Jesus and porn will all lead to gun violence, even if you can't get your hands on a gun. Guns have nothing to do with it.

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rifleman

*********Mental health is a valid reason for restricting access to guns.

Since my father was diagnosed with altzheimer’s - a few years back - police took away his driver’s license. My brothers have been quietly selling off his guns.

A few years back I was diagnosed with PTSD and severely depressed during an 8-year-long court battle, workplace bullying, 15 months unemployment, repeated retraumatization, intimidation inside court, intimidation outside court, delayed knee surgery, infection, swollen leg, deep vein thrombosis, inability to buy prescription medication, too poor to buy food, impending eviction, etc. I was too poor to buy a bullet! I contemplated suicide, but concluded suicide would be an admission that bullies in silk robes had gotten the better of me. I am too stubborn to allow lawyers to win!



Here in the UK, as part of the application process for a firearms licence, you are required to consent to having a medical. The written consent for this also includes a mandatory reporting clause that states that you understand and are giving permission for your doctor to inform the police if you are diagnosed with any psychiatric, mental health or physical condition which would affect your fitness to possess a firearm.

But that still only applies to a gun that you get legally. Most people who do these mass shootings don't seem to plan on surviving it anyway so what's one more theft?

The problem is that, in the UK, you need a valid firearms certificate to purchase anything firearms related - ammunition, reloading components, firearms and all sales are recorded. The certificate also lists what firearms you own and their serial numbers as well. Buy or sell a weapon and you have to report it, have the certificate amended and give the police the FAC number and details of the purchaser.

Because of two events, Dunblane and Hungerford, we have quite severe restrictions on what we can shoot - no handguns (unless they have a 12" barrel and a permanently attached counterweight), shotguns restricted to a maximum of 3 rounds (2 in the magazine, 1 in the breech), no semi-automatic rifles (unless chambered for .22LR) and no restrictions on bolt-action rifles. You also have to have "good cause" to possess said firearms which is usually membership of a shooting club (usually at least 6 months before you apply for the FAC).

You also, if I understand it correctly, have a fairly low number of firearms. There are large areas of the US, including the one where I live, where there are so many handguns that getting one is a non-issue. I can drive to any one of three or four friend's homes and pick up a couple of guns in less than half an hour. They'll be pissed when they find out I took them but if I'm going out in a blaze of glory it doesn't matter.
That's why I think the idea of gun control laws won't do it. I'm not saying not to have any, but then we've had them since Jim Brady was shot in 1981. They do what little good they do, but trying to solve the problem with more or different laws is like polishing a turd. It's just not going to get any shinier.
When it comes to school shootings I think there is a reason for the huge increase in the number of kids snapping and going after the gun they found while looking for their Dad's porn stash. It's the same reason for the surge in teen suicides and cutting and eating disorders and.... well, the list goes on.
But nobody wants to look at that because it might tell us things what we really don't want to hear.

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Yeah, you have to reach up to get it, but there's pornography there. All of this is available without parental guidance.




Yeah.....I had a lot of parental guidance on pornography. All the best people do.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Last time I was in Europe there were video games, many doors, abortion, not enough Jesus, and plenty of porn available. I believe they are all available in Australia too.

So why aren't European and Australian kids shooting up their schools?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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billvon

The GOP now has a fifth cause of gun violence in schools. (None, of course, have anything to do with the easy availability of guns.) From Texas we already learned that:

-video games
-too many doors
-not enough Jesus in schools
-abortion

causes gun violence.

Now from Rep. Diane Black of Tennessee we have the latest scapegoat that has nothing to do with guns.

"Why do we see kids being so violent? What's out there? What makes them do that? Because, as a nurse, I go back to root cause. And I think it's a couple things. . .Pornography. It's available. It's available on the shelf when you walk in the grocery store. Yeah, you have to reach up to get it, but there's pornography there. All of this is available without parental guidance. And I think that's a big part of the root cause, that we see so many young people that have mental illness get caught in these places."

So video games, too many doors, abortion, not enough Jesus and porn will all lead to gun violence, even if you can't get your hands on a gun. Guns have nothing to do with it.



LOL nobody buys porn magazines at the store anymore, not when free porn is available on the internet.

The issue is parents not doing their damn jobs of raising their kids, keeping guns out of their hands and teaching them to respect others, and stand up for themselves the right way. You'd see school shootings return to 70's and 80's frequencies which were pretty low, but of course, you're never going to eliminate them completely.

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kallend



Last time I was in Europe there were video games, many doors, abortion, not enough Jesus, and plenty of porn available. I believe they are all available in Australia too.

So why aren't European and Australian kids shooting up their schools?



Just a wild guess: Perhaps, as our kids rarely have a chance to put their dirty little fingers on dad's weapon? As dad locked it up in a lockable safe? Which is controlled by the police, btw.

Or: As it really takes kind of endeavor to buy a gun on the black market??

Really, our poor kids have to be quite innovative to find a gun ...

Oh wait: Perhaps it's because of our very very strict gun laws?? Damn ...:ph34r:

dudeist skydiver # 3105

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