More mass shootings

[Bob_Church 7]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Bob,

Quote

we need to do the numbers on those areas, not the entire city.

No, not in the context of the posts. They were referring to Chicago, not some neighborhood within.

As for some neighborhood with a higher crime rate than some other neighborhood, you can find that in any large city anywhere in the world.

I would suggest that you NOT play the numbers game as your post would suggest.

Jerry Baumchen

Personally, I don't think the numbers matter all that much but every time I mention Chicago I get hit with "but you do know that their homicide rate is lower than (fill in the blank). I'm not sure how it matters. But if people are going to use that as an excuse to not do anything about it then I think they need to at least be careful about where they get the numbers.

[jcd11235 0]

Bob_Church

I don't think the numbers matter all that much …

The numbers are pretty much all that matter when discussing crime rates.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Bob_Church 7]

jcd11235

***I don't think the numbers matter all that much …

The numbers are pretty much all that matter when discussing crime rates.


On that note...

[SkyDekker 1,121]

jcd11235

***I said that they will soon die off, so no need to try and change their minds.

I understand the sentiment (and didn't find the delivery particularly offensive). After all, they likely require the most effort to enlighten (for lack of a better word), and have most of their lives behind them. However, I would that the long-lasting influence they have on their grandchildren is sufficient reason to not ignore them, but to help them learn better.

Don't disagree with hat sentiment at all. Though in all likelihood the effort will bear more fruit with the grandchildren directly.

[nolhtairt 0]

Looks like another mass shooting was aborted, at an Ohio middle school. Kid had plans on his phone to shoot it up, with a handgun. Wanted to make an impression.

Rode the school bus, and went straight to the bathroom at school... came out in the hallway with the gun, (fellow students remember seeing him but not the gun) and he went back in the bathroom and shot himself. He made an impression all right... All over the bathroom floor.

There was potentially another shooting averted by an alert policeman at a school (forgot where) that had a basketball championship game and a soccer game in progress. Teenage guy was in his car with a rifle and 100 rounds of ammo. Cop got suspicious and checked him out. I think it was in Texas. Good work.

[kallend 1,621]

nolhtairt

Looks like another mass shooting was aborted, at an Ohio middle school. Kid had plans on his phone to shoot it up, with a handgun. Wanted to make an impression.

Rode the school bus, and went straight to the bathroom at school... came out in the hallway with the gun, (fellow students remember seeing him but not the gun) and he went back in the bathroom and shot himself. He made an impression all right... All over the bathroom floor.

There was potentially another shooting averted by an alert policeman at a school (forgot where) that had a basketball championship game and a soccer game in progress. Teenage guy was in his car with a rifle and 100 rounds of ammo. Cop got suspicious and checked him out. I think it was in Texas. Good work.

When was the last time a teenage or twenty-something girl shot up a school?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jakee 1,254]

nolhtairt

He made an impression all right... All over the bathroom floor.

Classy.

Quote

Teenage guy was in his car with a rifle and 100 rounds of ammo. Cop got suspicious and checked him out. I think it was in Texas.

Is that at all unusual in Texas?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rifleman 61]

This is just a quick thought that came to me last night.

How much do you think the lack of of Universal Healthcare contributes to the mass shooting epidemic?

Here in the UK, if I feel as though things are getting on top of me, I can go to the local doctor's surgery, make a self referral to the local mental health team, see a doctor and get a diagnosis/medication if required. While I'm waiting for an appointment with the local mental health team, I can still access the doctor's and the mental health drop-in centre run by a local charity. The point being that because I don't have to pay to see my doctor/mental health professionals I'm more likely to seek help for any perceived problems long before they become destructive

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[JoeWeber 2,294]

rifleman

This is just a quick thought that came to me last night.

How much do you think the lack of of Universal Healthcare contributes to the mass shooting epidemic?

Here in the UK, if I feel as though things are getting on top of me, I can go to the local doctor's surgery, make a self referral to the local mental health team, see a doctor and get a diagnosis/medication if required. While I'm waiting for an appointment with the local mental health team, I can still access the doctor's and the mental health drop-in centre run by a local charity. The point being that because I don't have to pay to see my doctor/mental health professionals I'm more likely to seek help for any perceived problems long before they become destructive

That'll raise a few squeals but I think you ask an interesting question. Further, if you are the troubled child of a poor parent your chances of helpful intervention must be significantly greater.

There must be data somewhere showing mental health referrals by GP's or ER's.

[wmw999 2,116]

As an at-the-moment intervention, probably not huge. Most of the (generally) men doing this didn’t make a crisis call of any sort. However, had they had access to resources all along, maybe. But then there’s the issue about whether either they or their families would have recognized the possible benefits of therapy. A decent number of people seem to think that therapy and advice are only for the week.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[JoeWeber 2,294]

wmw999

As an at-the-moment intervention, probably not huge. Most of the (generally) men doing this didn’t make a crisis call of any sort. However, had they had access to resources all along, maybe. But then there’s the issue about whether either they or their families would have recognized the possible benefits of therapy. A decent number of people seem to think that therapy and advice are only for the week.

Wendy P.

I was thinking of the UK. They've had national health care for long enough that maybe parents are less afraid of asking for help or taking advice from a health professional.

[Phil1111 908]

JoeWeber

***As an at-the-moment intervention, probably not huge. Most of the (generally) men doing this didn’t make a crisis call of any sort. However, had they had access to resources all along, maybe. But then there’s the issue about whether either they or their families would have recognized the possible benefits of therapy. A decent number of people seem to think that therapy and advice are only for the week.

Wendy P.

I was thinking of the UK. They've had national health care for long enough that maybe parents are less afraid of asking for help or taking advice from a health professional.

"14.7% (over 6.3 million) of adults with a mental illness remain uninsured.

Missouri (7.7%), South Carolina (2.7%), and Kansas (2.4%) had the largest increase in Adults with AMI who are Uninsured –three states that have not adopted Medicaid expansion.

With a national focus on health care access, the uninsured rate is improving (3% reduction).

Unfortunately, having insurance coverage does not mean access needed treatment.

56.5% of adults with mental illness received no past year treatment, and for those seeking treatment, 20.1% continue to report unmet treatment needs.

The state prevalence of uninsured adults with mental illness ranges from 3.3% in Massachusetts to 23.8% in South Carolina."
http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/issues/mental-health-america-access-care-data

"The country is up in arms over how many people will lose healthcare under the Trump administration’s new healthcare plan. On Monday the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) published a report estimating that the number of uninsured Americans would increase by an additional 24 million people to total 52 million by 2026. (“In 2026, an estimated 52 million people would be uninsured, compared with 28 million who would lack insurance that year under current law,” the authors of the report write.) By next year at this time they estimate that number to jump by 14 million.

This would reverse the current trend in the United States of reducing its number of uninsured inhabitants to the lowest rates in over 50 years. Under the Affordable Care Act (aka the “ACA” or “Obamacare”) the rate of uninsured Americans plunged from 15.7% in 2010 to 8.6% in September of 2016."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-truth-about-exercise-addiction/201703/how-would-trumpcare-affect-mental-health-care

[RonD1120 58]

JoeWeber

***As an at-the-moment intervention, probably not huge. Most of the (generally) men doing this didn’t make a crisis call of any sort. However, had they had access to resources all along, maybe. But then there’s the issue about whether either they or their families would have recognized the possible benefits of therapy. A decent number of people seem to think that therapy and advice are only for the week.

Wendy P.

I was thinking of the UK. They've had national health care for long enough that maybe parents are less afraid of asking for help or taking advice from a health professional.

I have been involved in crisis intervention since 1973. My experience has been that few seek intervention on their own initiative. Generally, someone makes a referral for the individual in distress. In my later years it was the court system or directly from law enforcement.

It is difficult to earn a living in this field. Right now I am volunteering my service to veterans.

What I have found is that this work is rewarded indirectly and thus my financial needs are covered through others, many unrelated to the crisis.

I operate on faith. It is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen, Hebrews 11:1. It works for me.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

RonD1120

******As an at-the-moment intervention, probably not huge. Most of the (generally) men doing this didn’t make a crisis call of any sort. However, had they had access to resources all along, maybe. But then there’s the issue about whether either they or their families would have recognized the possible benefits of therapy. A decent number of people seem to think that therapy and advice are only for the week.

Wendy P.

I was thinking of the UK. They've had national health care for long enough that maybe parents are less afraid of asking for help or taking advice from a health professional.

I have been involved in crisis intervention since 1973. My experience has been that few seek intervention on their own initiative. Generally, someone makes a referral for the individual in distress. In my later years it was the court system or directly from law enforcement.

It is difficult to earn a living in this field. Right now I am volunteering my service to veterans.

What I have found is that this work is rewarded indirectly and thus my financial needs are covered through others, many unrelated to the crisis.

I operate on faith. It is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen, Hebrews 11:1. It works for me.

Ron,

I have deep respect for what you do regardless of your motivation. Please know that.

To your point that few seek intervention on their own initiative, the question is why? A strong component must be money.

The question I posed was regarding the UK where they have a national health care system. If a health care professional notices a troubled kid and suggests an appointment with a counselor, and there is no cost to a poor parent, are they likely to take the appointment?

I think Rifleman asked a damn fine question and for all we know there is a relationship between national health care and social violence.

If there is, and it is demonstrable, would you as a professional counselor then be in favor of a national health care system in America?

[rifleman 61]

Below is a link to an ad campaign that's currently running in the UK. It's being supported by Lloyds Bank and looks to help end the stigma attached to talking about mental health.

https://www.marketingweek.com/2018/02/01/lloyds-winning-c4-diversity-campaign-stigma-mental-health/

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[airdvr 197]

If one of the gun registration qualifiers is a mental health background check even fewer will seek help.

I like the idea of rooms that are "safe zones"...bulletproof and can be locked. Seems retro-fitting a classroom or 2 might be effective.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[jakee 1,254]

airdvr

I like the idea of rooms that are "safe zones"...bulletproof and can be locked. Seems retro-fitting a classroom or 2 might be effective.

Yes, that is a truly outstanding idea for schools that can't even afford books

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Stumpy 256]

JoeWeber

To your point that few seek intervention on their own initiative, the question is why? A strong component must be money.

Hey Joe - I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of mental illness, particularly depression. Unfortunately I've had far too much exposure to this in my friends - and I have lived in countries with socialised health care nearly all my life. The cost aspect has never been a factor. I don't totally understand - I don't think you can unless you suffer from it yourself -but it's not so much a matter of not wanting help, often its more that you don't think you are worthy of it.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Bob_Church 7]

Stumpy

***To your point that few seek intervention on their own initiative, the question is why? A strong component must be money.

Hey Joe - I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of mental illness, particularly depression. Unfortunately I've had far too much exposure to this in my friends - and I have lived in countries with socialised health care nearly all my life. The cost aspect has never been a factor. I don't totally understand - I don't think you can unless you suffer from it yourself -but it's not so much a matter of not wanting help, often its more that you don't think you are worthy of it.

We somehow need to start treating it pretty much the same way we treat physical ailments and in many ways I think it often is. Mind you, the way we treat physical ailments in a lot of people needs work but at least we know that, for the most part. And then there's the way children are treated. You have a child with parents in the middle of divorce or other things are going on and they just need someone to talk to. Unfortunately that's not covered by insurance so they end up labeled autistic or ptsd or something just so they can get the help.

[jcd11235 0]

Bob_Church

Unfortunately that's not covered by insurance so they end up labeled autistic or ptsd or something just so they can get the help.

Nobody is being diagnosed with autism just so they can talk to someone. Same with PTSD.

The problem is the general low opinion of people giving and receiving mental healthcare held by so many ignorant people. Neither diagnoses nor treatment are typically given arbitrarily.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Bob_Church 7]

jcd11235

***Unfortunately that's not covered by insurance so they end up labeled autistic or ptsd or something just so they can get the help.

Nobody is being diagnosed with autism just so they can talk to someone. Same with PTSD.

The problem is the general low opinion of people giving and receiving mental healthcare held by so many ignorant people. Neither diagnoses nor treatment are typically given arbitrarily.

Strange. I know at least three psychologists who are under the impression they've been doing it.

[jcd11235 0]

Bob_Church

******Unfortunately that's not covered by insurance so they end up labeled autistic or ptsd or something just so they can get the help.

Nobody is being diagnosed with autism just so they can talk to someone. Same with PTSD.

The problem is the general low opinion of people giving and receiving mental healthcare held by so many ignorant people. Neither diagnoses nor treatment are typically given arbitrarily.

Strange. I know at least three psychologists who are under the impression they've been doing it.

Your comments suggest you don't know enough about psychology to have at least three psychologists confide in you that they've been committing fraud.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Bob_Church 7]

jcd11235

*********Unfortunately that's not covered by insurance so they end up labeled autistic or ptsd or something just so they can get the help.

Nobody is being diagnosed with autism just so they can talk to someone. Same with PTSD.

The problem is the general low opinion of people giving and receiving mental healthcare held by so many ignorant people. Neither diagnoses nor treatment are typically given arbitrarily.

Strange. I know at least three psychologists who are under the impression they've been doing it.

Your comments suggest you don't know enough about psychology to have at least three psychologists confide in you that they've been committing fraud.

Yeh, that must be it.

[rushmc 18]

Bob_Church

************Unfortunately that's not covered by insurance so they end up labeled autistic or ptsd or something just so they can get the help.

Nobody is being diagnosed with autism just so they can talk to someone. Same with PTSD.

The problem is the general low opinion of people giving and receiving mental healthcare held by so many ignorant people. Neither diagnoses nor treatment are typically given arbitrarily.

Strange. I know at least three psychologists who are under the impression they've been doing it.

Your comments suggest you don't know enough about psychology to have at least three psychologists confide in you that they've been committing fraud.

Yeh, that must be it.

Just got to love them don't you?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JoeWeber 2,294]

Stumpy

***To your point that few seek intervention on their own initiative, the question is why? A strong component must be money.

Hey Joe - I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of mental illness, particularly depression. Unfortunately I've had far too much exposure to this in my friends - and I have lived in countries with socialised health care nearly all my life. The cost aspect has never been a factor. I don't totally understand - I don't think you can unless you suffer from it yourself -but it's not so much a matter of not wanting help, often its more that you don't think you are worthy of it.

Stumpy,

That bit was for Ron in particular. I totally get it that there are too many variables to offer simplistic solutions.

I was targeting Rifleman's excellent question about a possible relationship between national health care systems where cost isn't a determinant and social violence. The idea being that a parent who brings a troubled child for a regular check-up, for example, might be advised by the health care provider that in addition to that day's treatment it might benefit little johnny jet shoes to speak with a counselor about his obvious behavior issues.

Here in America that won't float if there isn't insurance or deep pockets. But in the UK or other first world countries with national health care maybe it does.

Hell, I don't know if it's fewer guns or more health care that causes less gun deaths everywhere else. I'm thinking it's fewer guns but the question is worth a thought.