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kallend

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billvon

>What is this background check?

A check to see if the purchaser is a criminal.

>Who carries it out and what is it intended to accomplish?

The seller carries it out using the Firearms InstaCheck Unit, a Colorado state service.



Based on looking at this who would you ban from buying a gun?

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>So if the applicant marks the "yes" box on "are you a criminal" they don't get the gun?

Nope. If the background search comes up clean they get the gun. If the background search comes back with 'convicted felon' they don't. (I assume you are OK with that.)

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billvon

>So if the applicant marks the "yes" box on "are you a criminal" they don't get the gun?

Nope. If the background search comes up clean they get the gun. If the background search comes back with 'convicted felon' they don't. (I assume you are OK with that.)



You said "criminal" Not Felon.
The thing is, when you're trying to use laws to change something the devil is in the details. We can say "gun control" or "background check" but legally those terms don't mean anything. Hell, they don't really mean anything even in discussions, which I think is why some of these discussions never seem to get anywhere.

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It's pretty clear that the purpose of the application is for the applicant to identify who they are so they can be checked out. I mean if ID is so important to prevent voter fraud why can't it be used to prevent killing machine acquisition fraud?
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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>You said "criminal" Not Felon.

OK, then, felon or any violent criminal. Traffic tickets we will let slide.

>The thing is, when you're trying to use laws to change something the devil is in the details. We
>can say "gun control" or "background check" but legally those terms don't mean anything.

Correct. Which is why they are defined within the law.

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Just so we are clear, please clarify any of these that does not accurately represent your position;

1- The CO background check is enforceable.

2- The law would be effective at reducing gun violence if enforced.

3- CO is still enforcing the law the prevents felons from buying or possessing firearms, and could enforce charging whomever sold them the firearm with failing to get the background check, but have chosen not to.

4- CO law enforcement is derelict in their duties because by choosing not to enforce the law, they are not reducing firearm violence.

Derek V

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gowlerk

It's pretty clear that the purpose of the application is for the applicant to identify who they are so they can be checked out. I mean if ID is so important to prevent voter fraud why can't it be used to prevent killing machine acquisition fraud?



Personally, and this is just me, but I don't consider that a background check. They check you for a criminal record. So if you've already been caught you can't buy a gun. First one's always free I guess. But when we say background check I suspect most people think of what happened when one of my ex-student employees applied to the FBI and they came around and talked to me about him. To me, that's a background check. And it's comforting to think they're doing background checks so that's the term that gets used.

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BIGUN


The 4th Amendment prohibits search and seizure by government agents without probable cause. And, while the judicial system has argued back and forth over how to define probable cause; the bottom line is that law enforcement officers cannot enter your premises without a duly-executed warrant. Nor, can they present evidence seized in this way in court. This exclusion applies not only to the residence, but to the vehicle.



Ask any black man if this statement is particularly assuring. So many counter examples, and it's a bit late for the court to say it was wrong after the fact. You're disarmed, potentially dead.

And let's be honest, SCOTUS hasn't thought much of the 4th amendment in a long time, and will veer even further with this next nominee (unless the evidence is obtained by Mueller, and then it's definitely fruit from a tainted search).

People might also want to consider Haynes v. United States in this conversation thread around universal registration or checks. Criminals cannot be compelled to participate in these.

Or consider that out of the millions of failed Brady checks, criminal charges were only introduced in a tiny fraction, on order of 1/10th of one percent. This has been true across all Administrations since it was enacted.

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billvon

>It's so sad to see you say something like this Bll!

It is 100% true (which means, of course, that you won't believe it.)

Here's a direct quote from the ATF site:

"Any person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of the State where he resides as long as he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."

So want a gun? Walk in to any gun show, find a private seller (i.e. not an FFL) put your money on the table and walk out with a gun.



So demonstrate this in California.

You know you cannot do so, there are no private sales in our state, making your statement a 100% big fat lie.

14 states and DC, comprising 116M Americans operate under these rules. 6 more (bringing it up to 158M) do for handguns only.

It's a long drive from LA or SD across state lines, and it's still illegal to purchase and return a weapon into California. So no, that's not how the kids are doing it.

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>You know you cannot do so, there are no private sales in our state, making your
>statement a 100% big fat lie.

>It's a long drive from LA or SD across state lines,

So it's a 100% big fat lie. You can't do it. But you can do it if you make a long drive.

I see you are adopting RushMC's logic. Sad!

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let me quote you: "Walk in to any gun show"

[drops mic]

(oh, and try driving across state lines in Hawaii)

It's the same bullshit here, isn't it? Same circular tales, the same permissiveness of attacks for the 'right side,' same distortion of statistics.

mostly I have to ask - what is the payoff, people? Seems like time would be better spent trying to decypher the last Trump twit. At least he and Mueller (and Rudy) are good for new content every week.

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>It's the same bullshit here, isn't it? Same circular tales, the same permissiveness
>of attacks for the 'right side,' same distortion of statistics.

Yes, it's a vast left wing conspiracy, intended to impose Sharia law on the US, mandate gay marriage and grab all your guns. Damn you for figuring it all out.

>mostly I have to ask - what is the payoff, people?

Fewer deaths would be nice. But of course that might inconvenience some people who really, really love their guns.

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Don't try and play word spin games with Bill on this site. He is the reigning expert!
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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billvon

>You know you cannot do so, there are no private sales in our state, making your
>statement a 100% big fat lie.

>It's a long drive from LA or SD across state lines,

So it's a 100% big fat lie. You can't do it. But you can do it if you make a long drive.

I see you are adopting RushMC's logic. Sad!



People here other than you hrer have logic. You are proving over and over again that that is a struggle for you.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc

Don't try and play word spin games with Bill on this site. He is the reigning expert!



It must be hard for you. Trying to argue with a man who knows words and uses them correctly. It just seems so unfair to subject your "logic" to such scrutiny.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

***Don't try and play word spin games with Bill on this site. He is the reigning expert!



It must be hard for you. Trying to argue with a man who knows words and uses them correctly. It just seems so unfair to subject your "logic" to such scrutiny.

It is the full on Trump effect: Reality is too difficult for me, I need my safe space, I'll just create my own reality with my own facts.

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gowlerk

***Don't try and play word spin games with Bill on this site. He is the reigning expert!



It must be hard for you. Trying to argue with a man who knows words and uses them correctly. It just seems so unfair to subject your "logic" to such scrutiny.

the only thing that's hard for me is not having some honesty. There's very little of that here with some people.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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SkyDekker

******Don't try and play word spin games with Bill on this site. He is the reigning expert!



It must be hard for you. Trying to argue with a man who knows words and uses them correctly. It just seems so unfair to subject your "logic" to such scrutiny.

It is the full on Trump effect: Reality is too difficult for me, I need my safe space, I'll just create my own reality with my own facts.

One thing's for sure, you just wrote your own reality on this thread.

Two really good thing to see your point and truth in your own world
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Quote

It is the full on Trump effect: Reality is too difficult for me, I need my safe space, I'll just create my own reality with my own facts.



Sure beats facing reality. Hey, did you hear that Trump had the biggest inauguration crowd ever? And he won the popular vote by 350 million votes.

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SkyDekker

Quote

Two really good thing to see your point and truth in your own world



I don't know what you speak, but it isn't English or American. Guess your made up facts and reality include a made up language.



You posted what you believe. That's good.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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gowlerk

***Don't try and play word spin games with Bill on this site. He is the reigning expert!



It must be hard for you. Trying to argue with a man who knows words and uses them correctly. It just seems so unfair to subject your "logic" to such scrutiny.

Let's not get too carried away here You're talking about a person who has created an art form of twisting words into a meaningless ball of twine.
Oh, and informed me that I'm the lowest of the low for pointing out that he didn't seem to know what a word we were talking about meant. He didn't disagree about not knowing what it meant, just that I was the lowest of the low for bringing that into the discussion.
.

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gowlerk

***Don't try and play word spin games with Bill on this site. He is the reigning expert!



It must be hard for you. Trying to argue with a man who knows words and uses them correctly. It just seems so unfair to subject your "logic" to such scrutiny.

"Walk in to any gun show"

These aren't complicated words, or logic. Bill lied. Half the country can't legally purchase a gun without a 4473 check. No kid under 21 can legally do it for hand guns anywhere. He didn't do it by mistake, or ignorance. He doesn't want to admit it, nor do you or Skydekker. He had a chance to take it back, but instead tried to double down. He then tried to tie me to fear of sharia or gay marriage, which is pathetic. (I live in San Francisco, graduated from Berkeley)

It's right out of Trump's book. Deflect, attack, admit no error. You guys give Rush shit for this sort of thing all the time. Be honest and admit to the same.

All the postings here have limited impact on wingloading BSRs....do you really think it has > 0.00000% impact on legislative policy? Or will save lives? This is a circle jerk, nothing more. Contacting your representatives, and most importantly voting is what matters. The gun opposition openly acknowledges that it's not the NRA money that gives them power, it's their voting members. Though maybe it jumped the shark in selecting Ollie North as its new lead.

A key benefit (one of the few) of the Trump election is that the 2nd amendment will remain secure for decades longer. HC could have threatened that. I'm not thrilled with the likelihood we'll regress on gay rights, but it's the one silver lining.

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