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kallend

More mass shootings

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yoink

***

Quote

CREATE THE DAMN DATABASE



No.

Derek V




cool.

Which is why change always has to be forced upon you instead of inviting you to be part of the discussion.

'A database would work but I'm not doing it!' YOU effectively just said that.

Bill's right. You pay lip service to wanting more safety but are unwilling to accept any change at all or propose any of your own. It's very easy to sit there and say no to everything, but the cost of that is that at some point people are just going to bypass or ignore you.

Basically, it's already been proven that the kind of records that you think we need here don't work. Not that that makes any difference to you.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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gowlerk

Yes, this thread would lead you to believe that the problem is simply mass shootings of students. But the reality is that the death count is nearly always raised by good old one at a time angry human shooting another angry human.

They don't get discussed here very much though. America's firearm problem is so much deeper than just the maniac with the AR-15. But those spectacular crimes are what will drive the movement for change.

Right this very moment someone, likely several people, are plotting how to out do the Vegas killer and the Florida school shooter. And laying in the weapons and ammo to do it. With each new atrocity the bar is raised. You can argue about guards in schools all you want. That merely makes them the first target that the killer needs to take out. Or some other crowd will do in a pinch. America is a "target rich" environment.

If the law requires you to register your weapons you will have a choice. Register or be a criminal. You'll do the right thing. Because you are not a criminal.




In my younger days, I was a lot more "pro 2nd Amendment", which I think is too broad of a term. I'm still pro-2nd Amendment, but I'm coming around more and more to some of the ideas put out here, specifically registration. If required to register, I would because I don't want to be a criminal.

I don't buy the instantaneous breaking of the Godwin barrier referencing the Nazis and confiscation, either, because we are talking about two different times/cultures and I don't think that the United States government would risk the bloodbath and unrest that might result from such an attempted action.

A couple of thoughts: I currently live in Japan, and I just completed the Japanese Compulsory Insurance for my wife's van and my car. This requirement is due every two years, and requires that you pay for insurance (separate from your normal auto insurance), a vehicle tax based on weight/engine displacement, registration fees, and take the vehicle through a pretty comprehensive and strict inspection. If there are ANY fluid leaks, you fail. If there is a burnt out bulb somewhere, you fail. If the emissions fall outside of the accepted level, you fail. If the headlights are out of alignment, you fail (both of my cars failed for this very thing the first time and had to be re-inspected).

In short, it was a huge pain to complete, but it left me with a couple of thoughts on the process: the average car on the road here is probably in better mechanical condition than the average car in most other countries (good for safety and the environment), and I drive a bit more defensively here than I did before because I dread the even bigger headache of doing this process again inside of two years because I was careless and crashed my car. Bottom line, I'm required to register my vehicles and to maintain them to a certain level of safety, and I comply because I want to have the freedom to drive. This process makes me a bit more careful about how I use my car. Lately, I'm trying to bike to work more often.

I understand that guns aren't cars, and the idea of a comprehensive registry of privately owned firearms still gives me a small amount of trepidation. However, I'm willing to listen to others and have conversations about the idea, because I think that this is one of the symptoms which badly needs to be treated. This certainly isn't going to stop gun violence, and I don't think that gun ownership is the sole root cause of gun violence in America, but I'm also not satisfied with the status-quo. I think that the root cause lies somewhere in our cultural norms.

To use Japan as an example again, the citizens here are very good at policing themselves. If you're sitting in the elderly/pregnant/handicapped seating on a bus or train, it's not unheard of for a random person to come up to you and tell you to move, since that space isn't reserved for you. When my family and I arrived here with a baby, our pets, and 10 bags, the airport officials not only helped us with our luggage, but ushered us to the front of every line to make sure we didn't miss our connection (we made it by 8 minutes). There is a cultural norm here for people to do what is right in order for everyone to co-exist, regardless of whether you like someone or not. I feel like I could walk around a run-down area here at 3am and be in no danger except for the danger of busting my military curfew!

Japan certainly has its issues, but safety and peaceful co-existence don't seem to be among them. They're just a really easy and immediate yard stick (meter stick?) for me to use since I live here. I don't know how to go about effecting a cultural change like this in America, but I think that if this happened little by little, many of our violence (not just gun) related issues would be reduced. In other words, the unwillingness of many people to go-along to get-along is a root cause (not the ONLY root cause) of many of our problems in America, and gun violence is a symptom of that root cause.
The best things in life are dangerous.

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Hooknswoop

We have that in Colorado. It is not enforceable.



For all practical purposes, no gun purchase legislation is enforceable at the state level, because we have freedom of interstate travel. That in no way implies that the same legislation at the federal level would be equally unenforceable.
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Hooknswoop

You will never get 100% of the guns to have your GPS/trigger interrupter installed.



Laws against murder haven't eliminated murder completely. You support their repeal, correct?
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BIGUN

… am conflicted about the knee-jerk reaction …



Knee-jerk reaction? Seriously? :S

Are you really that out of touch with reality?

We've allowed the same stupid shit to keep happening over and over, for many years. If we finally pass some reasonable gun legislation, you can rest easy knowing that it was anything but a knee-jerk reaction.
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jcd11235

***… am conflicted about the knee-jerk reaction …



Knee-jerk reaction? Seriously? :S

Are you really that out of touch with reality?

We've allowed the same stupid shit to keep happening over and over, for many years. If we finally pass some reasonable gun legislation, you can rest easy knowing that it was anything but a knee-jerk reaction.

I'd appreciate your not taking it to a personal level and actually share your in touch with reality thoughts on your proposed legislation.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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Derek,

Why is the AR-15 becoming the weapon of choice for mass murder by firearm in the US? Why are the back-up weapons often .44 cal or 9MM pistols? I think the pistols were often Glocks or Sig Sauers, that type. Why those particular weapons do you think?

Joe

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BIGUN

I'd appreciate your not taking it to a personal level and actually share your in touch with reality thoughts on your proposed legislation.



Fair enough.

> As a former soldier …

Me too. 13B, A-Bttry 1/8 FA, 25ID. I don't find that my military experience offers any special insight, compared to experience gained elsewhere.

> … banning assault looking weapons is silly. …

Damn. I stand corrected. It comes in handy right here. No, it's not silly. The form factor of assault weapons makes their users more effective potential killers, all else equal. There's a reason modern combat rifles are typically shorter than the muskets used by the Colonial Army. Would you really be indifferent between a semi-automatic rifle of the same dimensions & weight of a revolutionary musket and an AR-15 in a close combat situation? I know I wouldn't.

> I have no problem with a formal system of transference not
> unlike that of an automobile.

Sounds reasonable.

> Training - the course for those who don't have any training is
> a bit of a joke (2 days). Extend the training & require annual
> re-quals with a minimum of marksman.

Sounds a lot like a well-organized militia to which I once belonged. I could go along with that.

> There are some states that allow one with a DD-214 in the
> past 20 years … I seriously know AF & Navy folks that saw a
> weapon in basic with annual re-quals and that was about it.

Agreed. Not everyone was a Lightfighter! :D In general, I tend to think if someone has a particular skillset, it should not be too burdensome to demonstrate that skillset.

> Even uniform unarmed patrol in schools has served as a
> deterrence.

So I've heard. Again, seems reasonable, assuming they are adequately trained (school specific training).

> Metal detectors + campus security …

I admit not clicking the link, but I'm mostly okay with metal detectors and campus security. I really don't like the idea of metal detectors, but they might be a fact of life.

> There's plenty of police officers …

Hmmm … I can't go along with this one. Most of the situations an in-school security officer is likely to encounter are going to be better solved with the techniques of a school counselor, not a law enforcement officer. Until our nation's law enforcement officers can do a much better job exercising restraint and policing themselves, I'm not inclined to support posting police at schools, off-duty or otherwise.

The problem is that anything we do at the school level is a band-aid (unless it prevents the intent). It doesn't do anything to stop mass shootings in general. It just moves them (maybe). At the end of the day, the nation has to have a conversation about our national gun fetish.
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JoeWeber

Derek,

Why is the AR-15 becoming the weapon of choice for mass murder by firearm in the US? Why are the back-up weapons often .44 cal or 9MM pistols? I think the pistols were often Glocks or Sig Sauers, that type. Why those particular weapons do you think?

Joe



Nice talking points Joe.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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I understand that guns aren't cars, and the idea of a comprehensive registry of privately owned firearms still gives me a small amount of trepidation.



Here in Canada restricted weapons must be registered. Mainly handguns I believe. In 1995 when the current program was introduced, it required registration of all, including non-restricted rifles and shotguns etc as well. This part of the program was massively resisted, delayed, and ultimately dropped. Even Canadians have limits on how much gun control we will accept.

Automatic weapons are generally completely prohibited. Assault type rifles are allowed, with very strong magazine limits. Handguns are allowed by permit with very strong restrictions on storage and keeping them secure.

Gun enthusiasts gaze longingly at what is allowed in the US and they complain that some of the places where the line is drawn on what is prohibited can be arbitrary. Almost no one is allowed to carry. Even off duty LEOs are not allowed to walk around with concealed pistols.

Our firearms death rate is about 20 % of that in the US. The system does not stop people from being killers. But it makes it very hard for them to be efficient killers. And the police do not feel they need to shoot quickly when someone's hands go out of view.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Why is the AR-15 becoming the weapon of choice for mass murder by firearm in the US? Why are the back-up weapons often .44 cal or 9MM pistols? I think the pistols were often Glocks or Sig Sauers, that type. Why those particular weapons do you think?



I haven’t really thought about it, but I’ll do my best to answer the question.

AR-15’s are not expensive, easy to operate, and low recoil. There are lots of parts available ke to customize them.

I would expect the pistols to be 9mm glocks for the same reasons. I wouldn’t expect the caliber to be .44. More likely .45. The trade off there is how much energy the round has vs. the number of rounds the pistol can hold. The debate of 9mm vs. .45 will probably never end.

Derek V

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You are the 4th person on this thread I'm asking. You want all these gone to?

https://www.google.com/search?q=browning+bar+for+sale+hunting+rifle&prmd=svin&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwm5P0mrbZAhVLzIMKHZ5kCawQ_AUICygD&biw=412&bih=708&dpr=2.63

They function just the same!
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Hooknswoop

Quote

Why is the AR-15 becoming the weapon of choice for mass murder by firearm in the US? Why are the back-up weapons often .44 cal or 9MM pistols? I think the pistols were often Glocks or Sig Sauers, that type. Why those particular weapons do you think?



I haven’t really thought about it, but I’ll do my best to answer the question.

AR-15’s are not expensive, easy to operate, and low recoil. There are lots of parts available ke to customize them.

I would expect the pistols to be 9mm glocks for the same reasons. I wouldn’t expect the caliber to be .44. More likely .45. The trade off there is how much energy the round has vs. the number of rounds the pistol can hold. The debate of 9mm vs. .45 will probably never end.

Derek V



What do you call an expensive?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc



They do not function the same. They have much smaller magazines and longer barrels. They are for longer ranges, not suitable for mass murder.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk



They do not function the same. They have much smaller magazines and longer barrels. They are for longer ranges, not suitable for mass murder.

You just made an example of why the others didn't reply.

Large magazines are just as available for those and you can get them as short as 16 inch barrels.

Thank you
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Hooknswoop

At the low end, $500.00

Derek V



Yes, that is at the real low end. Very few of them can be bought for that today
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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And I'm sorry to tell you they do function the same. They are gas operated single fire for single pull of the trigger rifles. The difference in many cases they can be bought in calibers that are much higher with much more destructive power than the AR-15. And they are available all over the country.

Does everybody buy them? No. The larger calibers tend to be much more expensive. But then that takes away the argument for rifles being stolen now doesn't it?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc

******

Quote

CREATE THE DAMN DATABASE



No.

Derek V




cool.

Which is why change always has to be forced upon you instead of inviting you to be part of the discussion.

'A database would work but I'm not doing it!' YOU effectively just said that.

Bill's right. You pay lip service to wanting more safety but are unwilling to accept any change at all or propose any of your own. It's very easy to sit there and say no to everything, but the cost of that is that at some point people are just going to bypass or ignore you.

Basically, it's already been proven that the kind of records that you think we need here don't work. Not that that makes any difference to you.

Hush. Adults are talking.

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yoink

*********

Quote

CREATE THE DAMN DATABASE



No.

Derek V




cool.

Which is why change always has to be forced upon you instead of inviting you to be part of the discussion.

'A database would work but I'm not doing it!' YOU effectively just said that.

Bill's right. You pay lip service to wanting more safety but are unwilling to accept any change at all or propose any of your own. It's very easy to sit there and say no to everything, but the cost of that is that at some point people are just going to bypass or ignore you.

Basically, it's already been proven that the kind of records that you think we need here don't work. Not that that makes any difference to you.

Hush. Adults are talking.


Lol

Not that I've seen!
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc





They do not function the same. They have much smaller magazines and longer barrels. They are for longer ranges, not suitable for mass murder.

You just made an example of why the others didn't reply.

Large magazines are just as available for those and you can get them as short as 16 inch barrels.

Thank you


But large magazines could be banned as well as shorter barrels. That's how we handle the issue here. It's not necessary to ban hunting rifles. Just certain modifications.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

*********You are the 4th person on this thread I'm asking. You want all these gone to?

https://www.google.com/search?q=browning+bar+for+sale+hunting+rifle&prmd=svin&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwm5P0mrbZAhVLzIMKHZ5kCawQ_AUICygD&biw=412&bih=708&dpr=2.63

They function just the same!






They do not function the same. They have much smaller magazines and longer barrels. They are for longer ranges, not suitable for mass murder.

You just made an example of why the others didn't reply.

Large magazines are just as available for those and you can get them as short as 16 inch barrels.

Thank you


But large magazines could be banned as well as shorter barrels. That's how we handle the issue here. It's not necessary to ban hunting rifles. Just certain modifications.

So now the goalposts move! Go figure.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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So now the goalposts move! Go figure.




The goal is less mass killings. The method is making the tools used to do them harder to get. Keep your eye on the ball.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

Quote

So now the goalposts move! Go figure.




The goal is less mass killings. The method is making the tools used to do them harder to get. Keep your eye on the ball.


Squirmin flails squirming flail:D

You made my night! Good night
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Derek,

You might be right but there are many firearms cheaper than AR-15's and Glocks.

I believe that it isn't so much the caliber as it is the image. I sincerely doubt that maniacs parse the .44 vs. .45 vs. 9MM debate prior to committing mass murder.

AR-15's and Glocks are military/police type firearms. They are also high capacity and fast to reload. Unfortunately, what is good for cops and soldiers is also good for crazed fantasy role playing by lunatics who are willing to trade the lives and futures of innocents for their 15 minutes of fame.

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