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airdvr

Cincinnati cop faces murder charge in driver's killing

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It would appear the officer was spun around. The car ended up stopping farther up the street, to the left. I'd say the car slid up the guardrail until it came to rest.

The distances involved will be key, video is good but is still subject to interpretation, physics and forensics not so much.

I think the kid made a really bad mistake, one that came after a series of poor tactics and choices. All these factors in total will lead to a reckless/wanton situation, not murder.

It will shake out, but the mob my not be satisfied, to many detractors facts don't matter.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

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jakee

***
I've watched the body cam video several times. I wasn't there, but what I speculate happened is the cop perceived he was in danger when he was leaning into a car that attempting to drive away. It wasn't the brightest idea to lean into the car, but it appears to me he considers himself in danger and draws his weapon.

Further speculation on my part is he didn't intend to shoot the dude. He just didn't have good trigger control and the movement of the car and/or struggle with the occupant caused him to squeeze off a round.



Ok, but the thing about that is that no matter what the motivation or intention it's still all the cops fault. He learned into the car, he initiated a struggle, he fired his weapon.

In any other situation, for anyone but a cop, if you point a gun at someone in anger and it goes off, you're a murderer.

how do you figure he drew his gun in anger? from what I can see the guy was attempting to drive away and he reached into the car to attempt to shut it off. He may have drawn his gun then in case he needed to enforce compliance. Once the guy started moving, he was in danger of harm, and he shot the guy... I see no indication whatsoever that he drew the gun in anger. I see he drew it to emphasize compliance (getting compliance is his job, as I see it).
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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skypuppy



how do you figure he drew his gun in anger? from what I can see the guy was attempting to drive away and he reached into the car to attempt to shut it off. He may have drawn his gun then in case he needed to enforce compliance. Once the guy started moving, he was in danger of harm, and he shot the guy... I see no indication whatsoever that he drew the gun in anger. I see he drew it to emphasize compliance (getting compliance is his job, as I see it).



"Getting Compliance" is not a valid reason to draw a gun or shoot anybody.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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Skycop pointed out the same thing I saw in the video. From where the initial stop takes place, you can see a parked car, an oil stain, and a pole a ways down the street. The cop asks for ID, the guy hems and haws. The cop opens the door and asks the guy to take off his seatbelt, presumably to get him out of the car. Instead of complying, the guy shuts the door, starts the car and begins to drive away. The cop yells 'stop, stop' then shoots. Then he falls on his ass, and you can see that he's closer to the parked car, the oil stain and the pole, supporting his claim that he was being dragged down the street. This could reasonably put him in fear of his life. Fleeing suspects often crash into innocent people, which means that the public was also in danger. I don't necessarily think the guy deserved to get shot in the head, but as in many of these cases, if the suspect had simply complied with the lawful orders of the officer, none of this would have happened.

I had a similar incident happen to me a while back. Like this guy, I was pulled over by a cop and informed that it was because my car was lacking the front license plate. Like this guy, I was asked to produce my driver's license. Here's where things went radically different. Me, I handed the cop my license. He looked at it and asked if I was in possession of the missing plate. I said yes, that it was at my home. He said I should put it on my car. I said that I would. He handed me back my license, and we both went on about our day, safe and sound.

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skypuppy

how do you figure he drew his gun in anger? from what I can see the guy was attempting to drive away and he reached into the car to attempt to shut it off. He may have drawn his gun then in case he needed to enforce compliance. Once the guy started moving, he was in danger of harm, and he shot the guy... I see no indication whatsoever that he drew the gun in anger. I see he drew it to emphasize compliance (getting compliance is his job, as I see it).



First 'in anger' doesn't mean the same thing as 'while angry'.

Second, you're a scary guy! No one, not even the police, should be pointing guns at people to emphasise compliance. You only point guns at people you might need to shoot. If he was waving a gun at someone he had no cause to shoot and it accidentally went off, that's still murder.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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dudeman17

I had a similar incident happen to me a while back. ....... He handed me back my license, and we both went on about our day, safe and sound.



you need to stop talking about your 'actions' :S
what you 'do' doesn't matter

I can't even assess your story without three more pieces of info

your race
your political affiliation
have you ever shot a lion

only then may we judge you

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Amazon

***

Quote

for anyone but a cop



Police have the power to detain and arrest. You and I do not. They have the authority to lean into a car to attempt to remove the keys of someone who is attempting to leave (not a good idea, but they can do it). Police 'initiate struggles' when perpetrators resist arrest.

A key part of the trial might be determining if the cop was angry, or fearful the driver was about to cause imminent bodily harm to him. I don't see anything in the video that indicates the cop was shooting out of anger.

Stupid mistake that ended a life.



Mr Dubose forget basic driving while black protocols

Somehow, he missed Chris Rock's video lesson. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR465HoCWFQ
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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jakee

***how do you figure he drew his gun in anger? from what I can see the guy was attempting to drive away and he reached into the car to attempt to shut it off. He may have drawn his gun then in case he needed to enforce compliance. Once the guy started moving, he was in danger of harm, and he shot the guy... I see no indication whatsoever that he drew the gun in anger. I see he drew it to emphasize compliance (getting compliance is his job, as I see it).



First 'in anger' doesn't mean the same thing as 'while angry'.

Second, you're a scary guy! No one, not even the police, should be pointing guns at people to emphasise compliance. You only point guns at people you might need to shoot. If he was waving a gun at someone he had no cause to shoot and it accidentally went off, that's still murder.

I didn't say point it at the guy, and I didn't say he was waving it around. I said the guy was being antsy, and his job was to get to the bottom of the situation, and get the guy out of the car...
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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arguably the cop did not/should not have the right 'to get the guy out of the car' for something as simple as a license plate violation.

Escalating a non-violent situation unnecessarily over what was clearly an administrative detail. Bottom line is that no one ever deserves to be shot for not having a license plate, or not having a drivers license. Nor should they even be subject to search in my opinion.

The absolute worst case, I would suggest is that the cop takes down the details of the car, the supposed name of the person and leaves it at that. If the police want to pursue verifying it or following up with a summons, then do that later on through another means of investigation.

The police officer had no reason to suspect that this person is a wanted felon, was carrying illegal weapons, was a terrorist, or was about to commit a violent crime.

I would advocate for changes to laws that actually DO NOT allow officers to search for things over and above what the suspected 'crime' is. Not sure how that might work, but if I pull you over for a tail light being out, I would prefer that the scope of the investigation is related to your vehicle only - not treating you as if you are 'deadly'.

Now if you and your car fits the description of an armed robbery suspect that happened 3 blocks away 10 minutes ago, then I can see where there needs to be some discretion.

I do not claim to have the answers, but I am sure that good rules and legislation can be written that allow people a little more freedom and keeps cops from drawing their guns in such situations.

If the cop never reached into the car, then the possibility of getting dragged would not have been there.

And I am glad that this guy is facing a murder charge - it is truly horrific that people's lives are brought to an end in violent confrontations with police over such bullshit.

Prosecutor called it “a senseless, asinine shooting” and that is exactly what it is.

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skycop

It would appear the officer was spun around. The car ended up stopping farther up the street, to the left. I'd say the car slid up the guardrail until it came to rest.

The distances involved will be key, video is good but is still subject to interpretation, physics and forensics not so much.

I think the kid made a really bad mistake, one that came after a series of poor tactics and choices. All these factors in total will lead to a reckless/wanton situation, not murder.

It will shake out, but the mob my not be satisfied, to many detractors facts don't matter.



I agree that we are going to have to wait for the rest of the evidence to be presented to see how this plays out. I do have one burning question that is driving me nuts though. If he was afraid of being drug under the car, why didn't he let go?

Cops for the most part are people, not raccoons. When we grab something shiny in a box, we do have the ability to let go. He had a rear license plate number and the guys face on camera. He could have found him later. Well, that is enough back seat driving from me....:ph34r:

On the victims defense, I don't really blame anyone who runs from cops on a traffic stop. If the cost of the ticket is going to destroy you (especially if you live in California), you really don't have much to loose, do you?

How many times do you think "Oh fuck, how much is this going to cost?" been muttered when someone sees flashing lights in their rear view?:ph34r:
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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arguably the cop did not/should not have the right 'to get the guy out of the car' for something as simple as a license plate violation. ...
The absolute worst case, I would suggest is that the cop takes down the details of the car, the supposed name of the person and leaves it at that.

He pulled the guy over for a license plate violation. Then the guy was unable to produce a drivers license, after which the guy reached down and grabbed a bottle of gin, which he handed to the cop. Who hands a bottle of liquor to a cop when they are asking for your driver's license? I think at that point the cop would have been well justified in having a suspicion that the guy in fact was driving without a license and while impaired. Certainly a road-side sobriety test would have been in order, which requires the driver to get out of the car. Instead, he pulled the door closed, put the car in gear, and started to drive off.

Surely you are not saying that police should just let an unlicensed and possibly DUI driver just leave, and mail a summons later? Suppose a cop did that, and 5 minutes later the guy hits and kills someone; do you think people would just say "well there is nothing the cop should have done except let the guy drive away"?

I am not saying anything that happened after that point was OK, because I do not believe it was. There is no evidence from the video that the cop was personally in danger, or was being dragged, and his response was totally unwarranted.

But I disagree that cops should ignore unlicensed vehicles, unlicensed drivers, and DUIs. Where I live, we have had a number of instances in the last couple of years where drunk drivers who also were driving on suspended licenses hit pedestrians on the sidewalk or crossing in a crosswalk. In two cases young college students were left severely brain damaged, they will never again walk, talk, or even be able to feed themselves. In several others people are faced with months or years of painful rehab. I do not want unlicensed drunks driving anywhere. That doesn't mean they should be shot, but they also should not be permitted to just drive off either.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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tkhayes

arguably the cop did not/should not have the right 'to get the guy out of the car' for something as simple as a license plate violation.

Escalating a non-violent situation unnecessarily over what was clearly an administrative detail. Bottom line is that no one ever deserves to be shot for not having a license plate, or not having a drivers license. Nor should they even be subject to search in my opinion.

The absolute worst case, I would suggest is that the cop takes down the details of the car, the supposed name of the person and leaves it at that. If the police want to pursue verifying it or following up with a summons, then do that later on through another means of investigation.

The police officer had no reason to suspect that this person is a wanted felon, was carrying illegal weapons, was a terrorist, or was about to commit a violent crime.

I would advocate for changes to laws that actually DO NOT allow officers to search for things over and above what the suspected 'crime' is. Not sure how that might work, but if I pull you over for a tail light being out, I would prefer that the scope of the investigation is related to your vehicle only - not treating you as if you are 'deadly'.

Now if you and your car fits the description of an armed robbery suspect that happened 3 blocks away 10 minutes ago, then I can see where there needs to be some discretion.

I do not claim to have the answers, but I am sure that good rules and legislation can be written that allow people a little more freedom and keeps cops from drawing their guns in such situations.

If the cop never reached into the car, then the possibility of getting dragged would not have been there.

And I am glad that this guy is facing a murder charge - it is truly horrific that people's lives are brought to an end in violent confrontations with police over such bullshit.

Prosecutor called it “a senseless, asinine shooting” and that is exactly what it is.



I was going to say it, but Georgia Don beat me to it. What if the guy is suspected of being drunk now? Let him go? In the video he just handed the guy a bottle of gin off the floor in front of his feet. You don't think that's reason for search?
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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skypuppy

***



I was going to say it, but Georgia Don beat me to it. What if the guy is suspected of being drunk now? Let him go? In the video he just handed the guy a bottle of gin off the floor in front of his feet. You don't think that's reason for search?

What the cop should have done is radio for backup as soon as the driver started up and got in gear, then follow in his patrol car until the dude's cornered and taken down. Both fucked up, and the dude paid with his life.:|
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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normiss

In that case, yes, murder someone ASAP.
:|

That's beneath you, Norm. I know your reading comprehension is better than that.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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I specifically said "I do not have all the answers"

But I am sure that the situation can be improved over what it is today.

Bottom line, stopping cops from shooting people in the head for license violations...OR FOR DRINKING AND DRIVING sounds good to me. we can play quid pro quo all day long with anecdotal scenarios that accomplish nothing.

The bottle of gin was full and looks to be unopened (yet to be determined in evidence)....but people that buy booze and then drive do in fact have bottles of booze in their car.

If the bottle was half full, then the cop would have reason to suspect drinking and driving. the fact that the bottle is full should raise no more suspicion other than "This guy might have just bought a bottle of gin". The cop asks what the bottle is, and the guy 100% cooperates - that should LOWER suspicion as a result of polite and cooperative dissertation, not escalate it.

That is like asking someone if they have a gun. They might have a gun, and it may very well be legal, but to say they have a gun is not an indication that they just shot someone.

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Bottom line, stopping cops from shooting people in the head for license violations...OR FOR DRINKING AND DRIVING sounds good to me.



The bottom line is the cop did neither of those things

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

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There have been a number of good decisions by the supremes on the pursuit of felons, violent felons, and suspicious persons.
I don't recall the lack of a front license plate being one of those.

As a citizen of a state without front plates, am I to expect a felony stop as well?
:S

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normiss

Sorry, it was out of line to your comments.

No problem. Hope you have a fun & safe weekend.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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