Four US Marines dead in suspected domestic terror attack

[kallend 1,822]

rushmc

******Yes. I have seen those too. So there conflicting studies. And I would assume you have seen those studies indicating just the opposite. Which leaves us with our own opinions. That was my point. Again. I will post those when i get off the road

Oh. Thanks for providing links

First you write:

Quote

So you assurtion is what is kneejerk as you have NO facts to back you what is clearly your opinion

Now you admit that you have seen the studies that back his statement.

And we are still awaiting the cites to the studies YOU claim exist that refute his statement.


First off, he made the unsubstantiated claim. HE needs to back his assertion
Second, the studies that Bill linked are hard pressed to make the claim of more guns increasing the suicide rates. Guns do make suicide attempts much more successful however.
The issue becomes correlation or causation.

There are no studies that can show more guns promote a higher rates of suicide. Period. Even though some try to say this is what they thing thier study shows.

The following is from National Review

“We see a similarly elaborate story internationally. It is often asserted that the ease with which Americans can get hold of a firearm helps to explain their country’s suicide rate. Is this true? Well, it’s difficult to tell. Japan — a country with extremely strict gun-control laws — has twice the suicide rate as the United States, while Cuba and France have suicide rates that are slightly above the American average. Culture matters. On the other hand, more restrictionist nations such as New Zealand, Canada, Australia, Ireland, Sweden, and Germany do have rates that are slightly — albeit only slightly – lower than America’s. Switzerland, meanwhile, suffers fewer suicides than Britain, even though large swaths of its citizenry are armed with automatic weapons.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/396388/complex-question-firearms-and-suicide-rate-charles-c-w-cooke
It is more a matter of culture than anything else


An article at discovery.com stated the following

“Furthermore, a presentation described in the Boston Globe article comparing states with high rates of gun ownership with states of low gun ownership showed the “low-gun” states “had similar rates of depression and suicidal thoughts, as well as similar rates of suicide that did not involve firearms, like hanging and poisoning. But the number of people who died by shooting themselves was almost four times greater in the high-gun states.””

This is like saying that people who get into water are going to get wet

The tool is move readily available
This statement in no way proves that taking the tool away would lower suicide rates. It only notes that where guns are available they are used.

The following states is better than I can

“Using a variety of techniques and data we estimate that a 1% increase in the household gun ownership rate leads to a .5 to .9% increase in suicides.* (n.b. slight change in language from earlier version for clarity.)
Even if one thinks that suicides don’t cause gun ownership one might imagine that they are correlated due say to a third factor such as social anomie. We have an interesting test of this in the paper. If suicides and gun ownership were being driven by a third factor we would expect gun ownership to be correlated with all suicides not just gun-suicide. What we find, however, is that an increase in gun ownership decrease non-gun suicide. From an economics perspective this makes perfect sense. As gun ownership increases, the cost of gun-suicide falls because guns are easier to access and as the cost of gun-suicide falls there is substitution away from non-gun suicide.
Put differently, when gun ownership decreases other methods of suicide increase. Substitution among methods is not perfect, however, so when gun ownership decreases we see a big decrease in gun-suicide and a substantial but less than fully compensating increase in non-gun suicide so a net decrease in the number of suicides.
Our econometric results are consistent with the literature on suicide which finds that suicide is often a rash and impulsive decision–most people who try but fail to commit suicide do not recommit at a later date–as a result, small increases in the cost of suicide can dissuade people long enough so that they never do commit suicide.”

http://freakonomics.com/2013/11/18/on-suicide-and-guns/

It is not a simple thing to deal with

Bill quoted a peer reviewed piece of scholarly research. You quoted a right wing broadsheet and freakonomics.

I suppose in your world they are all equivalent.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

Seems no one can comment on any paper at any time


IF you disagree with the findings

Normal

Quote

Abstract

This study investigates the relationship between firearm prevalence and suicide in a sample of all US states over the years 2000–2009. We find strong, positive effects of gun prevalence on suicide using OLS estimation, across a variety of measures for gun possession, and with several sets of controls. When using instrumental variable estimation, the effect remains significant, despite also finding significant evidence that gun ownership causes substitution towards gun-suicide rather than other methods of suicide. There is also evidence for non-linearities in the effects of guns on suicide.

Carry on Prof....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,822]

rushmc

Seems no one can comment on any paper at any time


IF you disagree with the findings

Normal

Quote

Abstract

This study investigates the relationship between firearm prevalence and suicide in a sample of all US states over the years 2000–2009. We find strong, positive effects of gun prevalence on suicide using OLS estimation, across a variety of measures for gun possession, and with several sets of controls. When using instrumental variable estimation, the effect remains significant, despite also finding significant evidence that gun ownership causes substitution towards gun-suicide rather than other methods of suicide. There is also evidence for non-linearities in the effects of guns on suicide.

Carry on Prof....

The plain FACT is that you claimed Bill had not presented any evidence, yet when challenged you then backpedaled and said that you had read the studies Bill quoted.

And you still haven't cited an actual piece of research, just quoted claimed abstracts from right wing crapsites.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[regulator 0]

Roger that. This is in my hometown.

http://abc13.com/news/armed-vet-stands-guard-outside-military-recruitment-office/872828/

[DanG 1]

Quote

Many, many times we just drove right past the guards without them even looking at us.

That doesn't happen anymore at active dury bases and posts. At Reserve Centers, there generally aren't guards at all.

- Dan G

[regulator 0]

I was referring to when I was active duty at fort Polk, LA during the mid 90's. Of course like you said it could have changed since then. But there are lots of national guard and deserve stations. Kinda hard to guard a place that only gets troops in full force one weekend a month.

[Amazon 7]

regulator

I was referring to when I was active duty at fort Polk, LA during the mid 90's. Of course like you said it could have changed since then. But there are lots of national guard and deserve stations. Kinda hard to guard a place that only gets troops in full force one weekend a month.

The world changed in twenty years...... when you were in

The world changed even more in 40years... than when I was in.

More than once I returned to the base from hunting with my rifle in my trunk and with a dead deer strapped to the top of the car...
I usually kept the firearms off base at a friends place in my own SAFE rather than having to deal with the SAC weenies playing with my weapons in their armory on the main base.

I am betting that would not fly in todays world... nor would I try.

[jakee 1,340]

rushmc

Seems no one can comment on any paper at any time


IF you disagree with the findings

Normal

Quote

Abstract

This study investigates the relationship between firearm prevalence and suicide in a sample of all US states over the years 2000–2009. We find strong, positive effects of gun prevalence on suicide using OLS estimation, across a variety of measures for gun possession, and with several sets of controls. When using instrumental variable estimation, the effect remains significant, despite also finding significant evidence that gun ownership causes substitution towards gun-suicide rather than other methods of suicide. There is also evidence for non-linearities in the effects of guns on suicide.

Carry on Prof....

Why are you posting something that disagrees with your argument as if it agrees with your argument?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[regulator 0]

I'm sure back then you could have a rifle in a gunrack in your truck with a deer on the hood and pull up to the local high school and the principal would come out to admire your rifle and count the points on the antlers.

Back when I graduated there were no armed security. No metal detectors. A few years after I graduated a kid brought a gun to school and another kid murdered my algebra teacher because she failed him. Damn I miss the 80's.

[normiss 723]

USN 80-84.
We were required to check weapons at the armory via the guards at the gate.
You did not want to be caught with a weapon on base as it was a General Courts Marshall.
Living off base in public housing, depended on local gun laws.

[DanG 1]

Quote

USN 80-84.
We were required to check weapons at the armory via the guards at the gate.
You did not want to be caught with a weapon on base as it was a General Courts Marshall.
Living off base in public housing, depended on local gun laws.

Well, that simply can't be true, since we've learned in this very thread that it was Clinton who disarmed the troops.. that pussy liberal.

- Dan G

[jclalor 12]

normiss

USN 80-84.
We were required to check weapons at the armory via the guards at the gate.
You did not want to be caught with a weapon on base as it was a General Courts Marshall.
Living off base in public housing, depended on local gun laws.

It sounds like we were in the USN at the same time, I was 80-83, I never got to even touch a weapon during basic or my time in the fleet.

It's going to be very interesting to see how the military and FBI handle the possibility, that perhaps some of the deceased service members fired back at the the shooter with UA personal weapons.

[okalb 96]

Not replying to anyone in particular, but I am just going to leave this here.

Man accidentally shoots self at military recruiting office:

http://www.cbs46.com/story/29573194/man-accidentally-shoots-self-at-military-recruiting-office#

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[Andy9o8 1]

Quote

The man couldn't have his gun on his hip because of the policy, but other store owners tell CBS46 that they heard the recruiter may have been hiding the gun in his front pocket. They say it went off as he was sitting down.

"Hey, asshole! Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you happy to see..."

[JerryBaumchen 1,261]

Hi jc,

Quote

I never got to even touch a weapon during basic

I was in '59-'63 ( yea, the Old Guy ) but everyone had to qualify during Basic. Later, serving in hospital admin we were considered noncombatants and did not have to re-qualify, as the other guys had to. The Geneva Convention requires that medics be unarmed in combat. Yea, sure; not the older guys that I knew from WW II or the Korean War.

Not trying to argue, but are you sure you never had to qualify on the firing range at some time during Basic.

And, why in H*** is a Navy man calling it Basic; it is Boot Camp?

Jerry Baumchen

[ryoder 1,547]

okalb

Not replying to anyone in particular, but I am just going to leave this here.

Man accidentally shoots self at military recruiting office:

http://www.cbs46.com/story/29573194/man-accidentally-shoots-self-at-military-recruiting-office#

And meanwhile in OH, a civilian volunteer guard accidentally fires a rifle: http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2015/07/23/recruiting-center-shot-fired.html

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Amazon 7]

ryoder

***Not replying to anyone in particular, but I am just going to leave this here.

Man accidentally shoots self at military recruiting office:

http://www.cbs46.com/story/29573194/man-accidentally-shoots-self-at-military-recruiting-office#

And meanwhile in OH, a civilian volunteer guard accidentally fires a rifle: http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2015/07/23/recruiting-center-shot-fired.html

There will always be TRAINING Failures.....

It is best to ALWAYS respect the weapon and treat it properly... if you do not....... feces can and will occur.

[regulator 0]

It's like the stories you hear on the grenade range of idiots pulling the pin on the grenade and throwing the pin and dropping the grenade. There will always be complete dumbasses in all walks of life. It's sad 90% of the population has to modify their lives to suit the 10% of dumbasses in this country.

http://www.military.com/video/ammunition-and-explosives/grenades/female-soldier-grenade-toss-fail/2371792239001/

[billvon 2,723]

>And, removing guns from the control variables allows one to be more vulnerable to
>being murdered.

But will allow more children to be killed through gun accidents.

There is no one good solution.

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

>And, removing guns from the control variables allows one to be more vulnerable to
>being murdered.

But will allow more children to be killed through gun accidents.

There is no one good solution.

Oh, I thought we were discussing the military.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[yoink 321]

Amazon

There will always be TRAINING Failures.....

No TRAINING is required for a civilian to buy and own a gun.

Everyone idiot who owns a gun thinks they're the shit with it - as shown by the moron taking a loaded weapon to a shopping mall 'to protect the troops' and accidentally discharging it. For the 2nd time, apparently...

That could have been really bad.

[Amazon 7]

yoink

***

There will always be TRAINING Failures.....

No TRAINING is required for a civilian to buy and own a gun.

Everyone idiot who owns a gun thinks they're the shit with it - as shown by the moron taking a loaded weapon to a shopping mall 'to protect the troops' and accidentally discharging it. For the 2nd time, apparently...

That could have been really bad.

Then that is a flaw in the system and a true breakdown in a basic family value.... I was trained in their proper use by grandfather from a very early age... everyone in the family was. In earlier times that is what was just how it was done and I know many families that have carried on that tradition.

[regulator 0]

billvon

>And, removing guns from the control variables allows one to be more vulnerable to
>being murdered.

But will allow more children to be killed through gun accidents.

There is no one good solution.

Oh for fucks sake. Not another 'for the children' argument.

[billvon 2,723]

>Oh for fucks sake. Not another 'for the children' argument.

I'd say "for the Marines" would be a better argument in this case.

====
Civilian guards ordered to leave shopping center after one accidentally fires rifle
By Mary Beth Lane
The Columbus Dispatch, Ohio
Published: July 24, 2015

LANCASTER, Ohio (Tribune News Service) — The armed civilians who have been guarding a military recruitment center here are gone, ordered off the property after one of them accidentally discharged his rifle on Thursday.

No one was injured.
. . . .
The Army has warned its recruiters to treat the gun-toting civilians gathering at centers across the country in the wake of the Chattanooga, Tenn., shooting as a security threat.
=====
http://www.stripes.com/news/us/civilian-guards-ordered-to-leave-shopping-center-after-one-accidentally-fires-rifle-1.359517

[kallend 1,822]

billvon

>Oh for fucks sake. Not another 'for the children' argument.

I'd say "for the Marines" would be a better argument in this case.

====
Civilian guards ordered to leave shopping center after one accidentally fires rifle
By Mary Beth Lane
The Columbus Dispatch, Ohio
Published: July 24, 2015

LANCASTER, Ohio (Tribune News Service) — The armed civilians who have been guarding a military recruitment center here are gone, ordered off the property after one of them accidentally discharged his rifle on Thursday.

No one was injured.
. . . .
The Army has warned its recruiters to treat the gun-toting civilians gathering at centers across the country in the wake of the Chattanooga, Tenn., shooting as a security threat.
=====
http://www.stripes.com/news/us/civilian-guards-ordered-to-leave-shopping-center-after-one-accidentally-fires-rifle-1.359517

That shot a hole in the "good guy with a gun" theory.

From what we read right here from SC's gun enthusiasts, it would appear that the very fact of owning a gun leads to an inflated sense of the owner's tactical skills.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.