Four US Marines dead in suspected domestic terror attack

[billvon 2,718]

>These same studies show that if they did not have access to guns they would still
>find a way as rates do not drop where access to guns is limited

Every study I've seen shows that suicide rates DO drop, and drop drastically, since most people reconsider halfway through the attempt. That is not an option with guns.

==================
Firearm Access is a Risk Factor for Suicide
Harvard School of Public Health
2008

Every study that has examined the issue to date has found that within the U.S., access to firearms is associated with increased suicide risk.
. . .

What is it about Guns?

Guns are more lethal than other suicide means. They’re quick. And they’re irreversible.

About 85% of attempts with a firearm are fatal: that’s a much higher case fatality rate than for nearly every other method. Many of the most widely used suicide attempt methods have case fatality rates below 5%. (See Case Fatality Ratio by Method of Self-Harm.)

Attempters who take pills or inhale car exhaust or use razors have some time to reconsider mid-attempt and summon help or be rescued. The method itself often fails, even in the absence of a rescue. Even many of those who use hanging can stop mid-attempt as about half of hanging suicides are partial-suspension (meaning the person can release the pressure if they change their mind) (Bennewith 2005).With a firearm, once the trigger is pulled, there’s no turning back.
=================
Guns and suicide: A fatal link
Harvard School of Public Health

[ Spring 2008 ]

In the United States, suicides outnumber homicides almost two to one. Perhaps the real tragedy behind suicide deaths—about 30,000 a year, one for every 45 attempts—is that so many could be prevented. Research shows that whether attempters live or die depends in large part on the ready availability of highly lethal means, especially firearms.

A study by the Harvard School of Public Health of all 50 U.S. states reveals a powerful link between rates of firearm ownership and suicides. Based on a survey of American households conducted in 2002, HSPH Assistant Professor of Health Policy and Management Matthew Miller, Research Associate Deborah Azrael, and colleagues at the School’s Injury Control Research Center (ICRC), found that in states where guns were prevalent—as in Wyoming, where 63 percent of households reported owning guns—rates of suicide were higher. The inverse was also true: where gun ownership was less common, suicide rates were also lower.

The lesson? Many lives would likely be saved if people disposed of their firearms, kept them locked away, or stored them outside the home. Says HSPH Professor of Health Policy David Hemenway, the ICRC’s director: “Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”
======================
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/magazine/guns-and-suicide/
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/

[Anvilbrother 0]

billvon

>These same studies show that if they did not have access to guns they would still
>find a way as rates do not drop where access to guns is limited

Every study I've seen shows that suicide rates DO drop, and drop drastically, since most people reconsider halfway through the attempt. That is not an option with guns.

==================
Firearm Access is a Risk Factor for Suicide
Harvard School of Public Health
2008

Every study that has examined the issue to date has found that within the U.S., access to firearms is associated with increased suicide risk.
. . .

What is it about Guns?

Guns are more lethal than other suicide means. They’re quick. And they’re irreversible.

About 85% of attempts with a firearm are fatal: that’s a much higher case fatality rate than for nearly every other method. Many of the most widely used suicide attempt methods have case fatality rates below 5%. (See Case Fatality Ratio by Method of Self-Harm.)

Attempters who take pills or inhale car exhaust or use razors have some time to reconsider mid-attempt and summon help or be rescued. The method itself often fails, even in the absence of a rescue. Even many of those who use hanging can stop mid-attempt as about half of hanging suicides are partial-suspension (meaning the person can release the pressure if they change their mind) (Bennewith 2005).With a firearm, once the trigger is pulled, there’s no turning back.
=================
Guns and suicide: A fatal link
Harvard School of Public Health

[ Spring 2008 ]

In the United States, suicides outnumber homicides almost two to one. Perhaps the real tragedy behind suicide deaths—about 30,000 a year, one for every 45 attempts—is that so many could be prevented. Research shows that whether attempters live or die depends in large part on the ready availability of highly lethal means, especially firearms.

A study by the Harvard School of Public Health of all 50 U.S. states reveals a powerful link between rates of firearm ownership and suicides. Based on a survey of American households conducted in 2002, HSPH Assistant Professor of Health Policy and Management Matthew Miller, Research Associate Deborah Azrael, and colleagues at the School’s Injury Control Research Center (ICRC), found that in states where guns were prevalent—as in Wyoming, where 63 percent of households reported owning guns—rates of suicide were higher. The inverse was also true: where gun ownership was less common, suicide rates were also lower.

The lesson? Many lives would likely be saved if people disposed of their firearms, kept them locked away, or stored them outside the home. Says HSPH Professor of Health Policy David Hemenway, the ICRC’s director: “Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”
======================
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/magazine/guns-and-suicide/
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/

Maybe we don't talk about the instrument and talk about the cause...mental health awareness and treatment. Most of these people exhibited signs people passed off as winter blues, or just being crazy old Carl. Instead of helping the suicidal person they ignorantly or willfully ignored the cry of help which almost everyone shows.

In almost all of these cases of mass shootings or suicides we discuss here on this website there were pretty clear signs something was not right if someone would have just had their eyes open and tuned into the warning signs they might have prevented it before the person even got a chance to think about using a gun.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[yoink 321]

Bolas

What's your stance on allowing them to be armed anytime?

No. Because they have a higher-than-average tendency to serious depression and explosive aggressive disorders. (See my earlier post for citations).


Honestly (and maybe I'm just a terrible person), but I don't particularly care about suicide by gunshot - at least not in this conversation. I'd like to help those people certainly, but for me forcibly arming a percentage of the population that has a demonstrably higher-than-average number of mental health issues, and then letting them walking around in the general public is nothing short of insanity.

I'm genuinely staggered by the number of people here who think that's a good idea.


Tangential:One of the things that surprised me (and I really like about the US) when I came here from the UK is the amount of public support, love and trust that you guys give your military men and women. That doesn't mean you just give them free rein though...

Personally, I'd be more scared of domestic incidents if that happened than I would be about international terrorism. And it would be a hell of a lot harder to put that genie back into the bottle if things did go south. Can you imagine it? If we did start to see an increase in gun related incidents by military personnel and the government said 'hey - we're repealing the carry law' the right wing guys would go NUTS. We'd be stuck with it.

[Anvilbrother 0]

This may not be representative of all so I wil make this a personal statement. I know about 20 people that is or was in the military, and they own more guns than I do, and I have dozens of guns.

I will generalize and say for the most part anyone who is in the service probably already owns at least one personal firearm so IMO it's a dumb point to say the beretta Uncle Sam gives you is going to be the tipping point in you deciding to use one to kill yourself or not.

You guys act like we are suggesting we arm teachers. These are MILITARY members it's not a foreign idea for them to have a weapons on them all day as part of their active duty job, or weekends and AT for reserve/guard.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[turtlespeed 212]

DanG

Anyone who can read above a third grade level knows I was refering to the Marine Corps, not the individual Marines in the recruiting station.

So I can understand the confusion.

You mean corpse, don't you, like obama pronounces it?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,718]

>Maybe we don't talk about the instrument and talk about the cause...mental health
>awareness and treatment.

That is definitely a better solution. However, the unfortunate fact is that if you have an impulse to kill yourself, and you have a gun, there isn't going to be a chance for that mental health treatment to do any good.

>In almost all of these cases of mass shootings or suicides we discuss here on this
>website there were pretty clear signs something was not right if someone would have
>just had their eyes open and tuned into the warning signs they might have prevented it
>before the person even got a chance to think about using a gun.

Mass killings? Likely true.

Suicide? Very often there are no visible warning signs, primarily because some acts are impulsive rather than planned.

[JerryBaumchen 1,260]

Hi Dan,

Quote

Anyone who can read above a third grade level

Now wait just a minute, fella; you ask a lot of this place.



Jerry Baumchen

PS) And I am not going anywhere near commenting about writing at the 4th grade level.

[Anvilbrother 0]

If you live alone and have no friend coworkers or family yes, but if your husband wife, or child is thinking about suicide there are usually signs. My friend and I caught the warning signs with his 12 year old. Come to find out he and a girl were cutting, and discussing suicide together. I did not even live with this kid and only see him couple times a month and I saw something was very different with him. I agree that there are severe major illnesses where it could come out of the blue but that would be rare I imagine.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[rushmc 18]

Yes. I have seen those too. So there conflicting studies. And I would assume you have seen those studies indicating just the opposite. Which leaves us with our own opinions. That was my point. Again. I will post those when i get off the road

Oh. Thanks for providing links

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Dan,

Quote

Anyone who can read above a third grade level

Now wait just a minute, fella; you ask a lot of this place.



Jerry Baumchen

PS) And I am not going anywhere near commenting about writing at the 4th grade level.

And then some people go off and blame their "liberal teachers" for their inability to type a coherent sentence.

[kallend 1,822]

rushmc

Yes. I have seen those too. So there conflicting studies. And I would assume you have seen those studies indicating just the opposite. Which leaves us with our own opinions. That was my point. Again. I will post those when i get off the road

Oh. Thanks for providing links

First you write:

Quote

So you assurtion is what is kneejerk as you have NO facts to back you what is clearly your opinion

Now you admit that you have seen the studies that back his statement.

And we are still awaiting the cites to the studies YOU claim exist that refute his statement.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jclalor 12]

DanG

Anyone who can read above a third grade level knows I was refering to the Marine Corps, not the individual Marines in the recruiting station.

So I can understand the confusion.

Take it easy on third graders... Third grade was the greatest 2 years of my life.

[Driver1 0]

The shooting has prompted a Florida gun shop owner to declare his store a "Muslim-Free zone"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/florida-gun-shop-owner-declares-store-%E2%80%98muslim-free-zone%E2%80%99/ar-AAdhVCa



Hey, it's Florida!

There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

[Andy9o8 1]

Driver1

The shooting has prompted a Florida gun shop owner to declare his store a "Muslim-Free zone"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/florida-gun-shop-owner-declares-store-%E2%80%98muslim-free-zone%E2%80%99/ar-AAdhVCa



Hey, it's Florida!

Stupid drooler didn't even have an original thought. That gun range in Arkansas got its free publicity a few months ago doing the same thing.

I swear. The search for the missing link can be so easily solved. Just look for the St. Andrews Cross.

[billvon 2,718]

>If you live alone and have no friend coworkers or family yes, but if your husband wife,
>or child is thinking about suicide there are usually signs.

Sometimes there are; often there are not. Mental health services can work wonders, but you have to know that they need help first - and often there is no indication they do.

> I agree that there are severe major illnesses where it could come out of the blue but
> that would be rare I imagine.

Or someone gets a call out of the blue that their wife is dumping them, and they have a full liquor cabinet and a handgun. Or they get pulled over for drunk driving and realize they will lose their job, their marriage and their kids as a result - and there is a gun within reach. Or they find out that their mistress is going to call the papers. Lots of cases where the event that starts the chain that leads them to kill themselves is not the sudden onset of disease, but a triggering event that leads a _relatively_ (not perfectly) stable person to decide to kill themselves.

As you mention, often you can see it coming. But often you can't. And thus arming any group of people is going to result in more suicides than if they were not armed. Is that worth it? Depends on the benefit you get out of them being armed.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Point understood. Well said thanks.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[rushmc 18]

kallend

***Yes. I have seen those too. So there conflicting studies. And I would assume you have seen those studies indicating just the opposite. Which leaves us with our own opinions. That was my point. Again. I will post those when i get off the road

Oh. Thanks for providing links

First you write:

Quote

So you assurtion is what is kneejerk as you have NO facts to back you what is clearly your opinion

Now you admit that you have seen the studies that back his statement.

And we are still awaiting the cites to the studies YOU claim exist that refute his statement.


First off, he made the unsubstantiated claim. HE needs to back his assertion
Second, the studies that Bill linked are hard pressed to make the claim of more guns increasing the suicide rates. Guns do make suicide attempts much more successful however.
The issue becomes correlation or causation.

There are no studies that can show more guns promote a higher rates of suicide. Period. Even though some try to say this is what they thing thier study shows.

The following is from National Review

“We see a similarly elaborate story internationally. It is often asserted that the ease with which Americans can get hold of a firearm helps to explain their country’s suicide rate. Is this true? Well, it’s difficult to tell. Japan — a country with extremely strict gun-control laws — has twice the suicide rate as the United States, while Cuba and France have suicide rates that are slightly above the American average. Culture matters. On the other hand, more restrictionist nations such as New Zealand, Canada, Australia, Ireland, Sweden, and Germany do have rates that are slightly — albeit only slightly – lower than America’s. Switzerland, meanwhile, suffers fewer suicides than Britain, even though large swaths of its citizenry are armed with automatic weapons.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/396388/complex-question-firearms-and-suicide-rate-charles-c-w-cooke
It is more a matter of culture than anything else


An article at discovery.com stated the following

“Furthermore, a presentation described in the Boston Globe article comparing states with high rates of gun ownership with states of low gun ownership showed the “low-gun” states “had similar rates of depression and suicidal thoughts, as well as similar rates of suicide that did not involve firearms, like hanging and poisoning. But the number of people who died by shooting themselves was almost four times greater in the high-gun states.””

This is like saying that people who get into water are going to get wet

The tool is move readily available
This statement in no way proves that taking the tool away would lower suicide rates. It only notes that where guns are available they are used.

The following states is better than I can

“Using a variety of techniques and data we estimate that a 1% increase in the household gun ownership rate leads to a .5 to .9% increase in suicides.* (n.b. slight change in language from earlier version for clarity.)
Even if one thinks that suicides don’t cause gun ownership one might imagine that they are correlated due say to a third factor such as social anomie. We have an interesting test of this in the paper. If suicides and gun ownership were being driven by a third factor we would expect gun ownership to be correlated with all suicides not just gun-suicide. What we find, however, is that an increase in gun ownership decrease non-gun suicide. From an economics perspective this makes perfect sense. As gun ownership increases, the cost of gun-suicide falls because guns are easier to access and as the cost of gun-suicide falls there is substitution away from non-gun suicide.
Put differently, when gun ownership decreases other methods of suicide increase. Substitution among methods is not perfect, however, so when gun ownership decreases we see a big decrease in gun-suicide and a substantial but less than fully compensating increase in non-gun suicide so a net decrease in the number of suicides.
Our econometric results are consistent with the literature on suicide which finds that suicide is often a rash and impulsive decision–most people who try but fail to commit suicide do not recommit at a later date–as a result, small increases in the cost of suicide can dissuade people long enough so that they never do commit suicide.”

http://freakonomics.com/2013/11/18/on-suicide-and-guns/

It is not a simple thing to deal with

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jclalor 12]

Quote

One of the Marines that died was identified as a war hero with 2 purple hearts. It's a shame he wasn't allowed to defend himself.

It's now appearing that at least one of the service memebers did fire back.

http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/29607255/fbi-chattanooga-shooting-victims-likely-killed-with-same-weapon

[billvon 2,718]

>Second, the studies that Bill linked are hard pressed to make the claim of more guns
>increasing the suicide rates.

Correct, because it did not claim that. The studies I posted show that ACCESS to guns increases the odds of successful suicide, since they are more foolproof (and more irreversible) than other methods. The number of guns does not matter - it is the access to a gun that is the problem.

>There are no studies that can show more guns promote a higher rates of suicide. Period.

Wrong! We can find such a study in your post:

"Using a variety of techniques and data we estimate that a 1% increase in the household gun ownership rate leads to a .5 to .9% increase in suicides."

Thus a study that shows an increase in gun ownership causes higher rates of suicide.

Let's see what else it says:

"What we find, however, is that an increase in gun ownership decrease non-gun suicide."

Which fits very well with the studies I presented. Guns are the preferred method of suicide when they are available.

"Our econometric results are consistent with the literature on suicide which finds that suicide is often a rash and impulsive decision–most people who try but fail to commit suicide do not recommit at a later date–as a result, small increases in the cost of suicide can dissuade people long enough so that they never do commit suicide."

An excellent demonstration of one of the points the studies I posted above made. Guns are easy (low-cost) methods of suicide; removing the easy method reduces suicide.

[regulator 0]

I personally know..er...knew someone training to be in an army ranger batallion and was going to fail out of his training cycle. His brother passed the training and I guess he didn't want to live as a 'failure'. He snuck a round in his pocket from the range and when he got back to the barricks he blew his head off. Another girl from my unit had left to fort bragg. Her husband was very possessive and he left fort polk and drove to bragg. He somehow got into her housing unit and waited for her to get back. He stabbed her over 20 times and she ran out and collapsed in the yard. He ran out the door and an MP heard all the hubub. They chased him several miles where he miscalculated a turn and directly impacted a bridge at a high rate of speed and killed himself. She lived somehow. I will say this. In the 90's we were not allowed to have our rifle unless we were in the field. But what was most troubling was the lack of real security entering the base. Many, many times we just drove right past the guards without them even looking at us. I say we need to get better training for the guards and stop everyone coming in/out and for the recruiters at least get some type of national CHL for recruiters. Give them an option to carry...even in gun restrictive places like new york, and LA.

[Amazon 7]

regulator

I personally know..er...knew someone training to be in an army ranger batallion and was going to fail out of his training cycle. His brother passed the training and I guess he didn't want to live as a 'failure'. He snuck a round in his pocket from the range and when he got back to the barricks he blew his head off. Another girl from my unit had left to fort bragg. Her husband was very possessive and he left fort polk and drove to bragg. He somehow got into her housing unit and waited for her to get back. He stabbed her over 20 times and she ran out and collapsed in the yard. He ran out the door and an MP heard all the hubub. They chased him several miles where he miscalculated a turn and directly impacted a bridge at a high rate of speed and killed himself. She lived somehow. I will say this. In the 90's we were not allowed to have our rifle unless we were in the field. But what was most troubling was the lack of real security entering the base. Many, many times we just drove right past the guards without them even looking at us. I say we need to get better training for the guards and stop everyone coming in/out and for the recruiters at least get some type of national CHL for recruiters. Give them an option to carry...even in gun restrictive places like new york, and LA.

I think in this area the civilians have them covered for now.. at least here where we have a significant amount of ex military who are stepping up.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/komo/article/Armed-civilians-take-up-guard-outside-Army-6399173.php

[rushmc 18]

billvon

>Second, the studies that Bill linked are hard pressed to make the claim of more guns
>increasing the suicide rates.

Correct, because it did not claim that. The studies I posted show that ACCESS to guns increases the odds of successful suicide, since they are more foolproof (and more irreversible) than other methods. The number of guns does not matter - it is the access to a gun that is the problem.semantics

>There are no studies that can show more guns promote a higher rates of suicide. Period.

Wrong! We can find such a study in your post:

"Using a variety of techniques and data we estimate that a 1% increase in the household gun ownership rate leads to a .5 to .9% increase in suicides."Here you make my point. You cherry pick a part of the info provided. You claim a .4% change means something and then, because you cherry pick and ignore (in your responce) the point the author makes about other ways of suicide INCREASING when guns are not ACCESSABLE to draw a conclusion that differs from that of the author

Thus a study that shows an increase in gun ownership causes higher rates of suicide.

Let's see what else it says:

"What we find, however, is that an increase in gun ownership decrease non-gun suicide."

Which fits very well with the studies I presented. Guns are the preferred method of suicide when they are available.

"Our econometric results are consistent with the literature on suicide which finds that suicide is often a rash and impulsive decision–most people who try but fail to commit suicide do not recommit at a later date–as a result, small increases in the cost of suicide can dissuade people long enough so that they never do commit suicide."

An excellent demonstration of one of the points the studies I posted above made. Guns are easy (low-cost) methods of suicide; removing the easy method reduces suicide.

Guns are the most effective
That is really what this study says when you look at those who make attempts and fail with other methods

Thanks for helping me make my point Bill

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

Guns are easy (low-cost) methods of suicide; removing the easy method reduces suicide.

And, removing guns from the control variables allows one to be more vulnerable to being murdered.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

Amazon

***I personally know..er...knew someone training to be in an army ranger batallion and was going to fail out of his training cycle. His brother passed the training and I guess he didn't want to live as a 'failure'. He snuck a round in his pocket from the range and when he got back to the barricks he blew his head off. Another girl from my unit had left to fort bragg. Her husband was very possessive and he left fort polk and drove to bragg. He somehow got into her housing unit and waited for her to get back. He stabbed her over 20 times and she ran out and collapsed in the yard. He ran out the door and an MP heard all the hubub. They chased him several miles where he miscalculated a turn and directly impacted a bridge at a high rate of speed and killed himself. She lived somehow. I will say this. In the 90's we were not allowed to have our rifle unless we were in the field. But what was most troubling was the lack of real security entering the base. Many, many times we just drove right past the guards without them even looking at us. I say we need to get better training for the guards and stop everyone coming in/out and for the recruiters at least get some type of national CHL for recruiters. Give them an option to carry...even in gun restrictive places like new york, and LA.

I think in this area the civilians have them covered for now.. at least here where we have a significant amount of ex military who are stepping up.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/komo/article/Armed-civilians-take-up-guard-outside-Army-6399173.php

Looks like common sense might prevail.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 1,822]

Andy9o8

***The shooting has prompted a Florida gun shop owner to declare his store a "Muslim-Free zone"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/florida-gun-shop-owner-declares-store-%E2%80%98muslim-free-zone%E2%80%99/ar-AAdhVCa



Hey, it's Florida!

Stupid drooler didn't even have an original thought. That gun range in Arkansas got its free publicity a few months ago doing the same thing.

I swear. The search for the missing link can be so easily solved. Just look for the St. Andrews Cross.

Scotland?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.