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brenthutch

Organic farming

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Obviously i don't know you or your background. Nothing personal at all. Maybe you should read up a little on what Organic agriculture practices actually are and what they aren't.

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?contentidonly=true&contentid=organic-agriculture.html

http://ofrf.org/organic-faqs

https://attra.ncat.org/organic.html

Beyond that, i don't have the energy today to argue the meaning of words.

I do hope you have a great day and have some great jumps this weekend.

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My background is neither in farming nor etymology and I don't have strong negative or positive feelings towards organic agriculture, I'm just playing Devil's advocate.

"Organic", from a purely technical standpoint, is a really broad term. Presence or lack of carbon atoms in molecules aside, the broadness of the term is probably appropriate because organic agriculture has a lot of broadly stated goals. I like to call them "do good things" requirements.

Now underneath that layer of stated goals, there are organizations that have more specific rules and standards to be followed. That's great, and I applaud the effort, but as we've seen here in California during the drought, farmers file for waivers to the regulations when things don't work out. I know it's a bad slippery slope argument, but the cynical side of me sees "organic farming" as meaning whatever it happens to mean today.

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champu

My background is neither in farming nor etymology and I don't have strong negative or positive feelings towards organic agriculture, I'm just playing Devil's advocate.

"Organic", from a purely technical standpoint, is a really broad term. Presence or lack of carbon atoms in molecules aside, the broadness of the term is probably appropriate because organic agriculture has a lot of broadly stated goals. I like to call them "do good things" requirements.

Now underneath that layer of stated goals, there are organizations that have more specific rules and standards to be followed. That's great, and I applaud the effort, but as we've seen here in California during the drought, farmers file for waivers to the regulations when things don't work out. I know it's a bad slippery slope argument, but the cynical side of me sees "organic farming" as meaning whatever it happens to mean today.



I think of I more as sustainable farming.... real seeds in real dirt.... utilizing other plants that have fixed nitrogen in them and then composted.... and added back to the soil for the next years crops. I am pretty sure that industrial farming could not be done the way I do it but going back to crop rotations and real stewardship of the land by family farms can do it. I am also a firm believer in buying local, get to know your neighbors and how they grow the fruits and veggies available in their stalls at the farmers market.

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As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as organic farming. And there won't be until Monsanto figures out a way to manipulate genes so that tomato plants can grow human organs for transplant. At $50 million per kidney. In the meantime I'll settle for orgasmic farming. Much more fun.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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"Organic", from a purely technical standpoint, is a really broad term. Presence or lack of carbon atoms in molecules aside, the broadness of the term is probably appropriate because organic agriculture has a lot of broadly stated goals. I like to call them "do good things" requirements.



Thing is, in criticizing the term 'organic' in farming you're assuming that the term 'organic' in chemistry carries the original and correct meaning. This assumption doesn't really hold.

Earlier recorded use of 'organic' and 'organical' in english carried the meaning of 'from living beings'. In that light, the term 'organic farming' makes perfect sense.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Ahh, what a fun topic. Great arguements from both sides.

I too more align my practices with sustainability over organic or conventional farming practices. At this point in northern california the "organic" label is not an easy one to get. More often than not, local small scale farmers are not up for the cost of the red tape to be labeled organic so they focus on natural and sustainable practices and then pass that on to the consumers. The vast majority of farmer and rancher friends i have where i live are not "Organic" but instead market their products as sustainably and naturally grown in the true sense of the terms not the walmart version of "Natural"

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that_guy

Ahh, what a fun topic. Great arguements from both sides.

I too more align my practices with sustainability over organic or conventional farming practices. At this point in northern california the "organic" label is not an easy one to get. More often than not, local small scale farmers are not up for the cost of the red tape to be labeled organic so they focus on natural and sustainable practices and then pass that on to the consumers. The vast majority of farmer and rancher friends i have where i live are not "Organic" but instead market their products as sustainably and naturally grown in the true sense of the terms not the walmart version of "Natural"



I buy a lot of "organic" fruits and veggies, but I don't really care about the label so much...as if a certifying body gives it legitimacy. Love buying at the farmer's market or going out to the farm and buying. Can't wait until I can start gardening again, temporarily a short term renter
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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jakee

Quote

"Organic", from a purely technical standpoint, is a really broad term. Presence or lack of carbon atoms in molecules aside, the broadness of the term is probably appropriate because organic agriculture has a lot of broadly stated goals. I like to call them "do good things" requirements.



Thing is, in criticizing the term 'organic' in farming you're assuming that the term 'organic' in chemistry carries the original and correct meaning. This assumption doesn't really hold.

Earlier recorded use of 'organic' and 'organical' in english carried the meaning of 'from living beings'. In that light, the term 'organic farming' makes perfect sense.



My point is not that "organic" in the sense of organic chemistry is the One True Meaning (tm) of the word. My point was that it's another meaning of the word. I live around a lot of consumers that strike me as being more interested in the popularity of the word than what it means.

What prompted me to be annoying in this thread was a recent conversation with a brother-in-law of mine. He was adamant about not buying "processed foods." And after additional inquiries into what he didn't like about them it became clear what he meant was he didn't like food dyes or when something says "artificial flavors" on it. I don't really get hung up on those ingredients, but if he doesn't like them that's fine. That's a lot different than just agreeing with him when he makes the claim, "processed foods are bad for you."

I just don't care for words that become too simple a shorthand for complex ideas.

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champu

***

Quote

"Organic", from a purely technical standpoint, is a really broad term. Presence or lack of carbon atoms in molecules aside, the broadness of the term is probably appropriate because organic agriculture has a lot of broadly stated goals. I like to call them "do good things" requirements.



Thing is, in criticizing the term 'organic' in farming you're assuming that the term 'organic' in chemistry carries the original and correct meaning. This assumption doesn't really hold.

Earlier recorded use of 'organic' and 'organical' in english carried the meaning of 'from living beings'. In that light, the term 'organic farming' makes perfect sense.



My point is not that "organic" in the sense of organic chemistry is the One True Meaning (tm) of the word. My point was that it's another meaning of the word. I live around a lot of consumers that strike me as being more interested in the popularity of the word than what it means.

What prompted me to be annoying in this thread was a recent conversation with a brother-in-law of mine. He was adamant about not buying "processed foods." And after additional inquiries into what he didn't like about them it became clear what he meant was he didn't like food dyes or when something says "artificial flavors" on it. I don't really get hung up on those ingredients, but if he doesn't like them that's fine. That's a lot different than just agreeing with him when he makes the claim, "processed foods are bad for you."

I just don't care for words that become too simple a shorthand for complex ideas.

Most "processed foods" have a shitpot full of sugar and salt.... among other things. I have a friend on dialysis whose kidneys have essentially shut down who is dieing of diabetes... I take her shopping.. and have actually read many of the labels on the foods she used to like. She ate like crap most of her life... It is no wonder her mother died of diabetes at 50 and her sister at 47. They were genetically pre disposed to getting it.. but their diet of high sugar and huge salt intake did not help them.

Now she is doing a bit better with fresh foods... meats and veggies without all the extra added stuff but it is too late for her.... she will be on dialysis for the rest of what will be a short life

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And, again, complaints of excessive sodium and sugars are completely valid. I agree with that a lot more than I agree with complaints about food dyes. But complaining about the foods being "processed" is like people bitching about "liberals."

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champu

And, again, complaints of excessive sodium and sugars are completely valid. I agree with that a lot more than I agree with complaints about food dyes. But complaining about the foods being "processed" is like people bitching about "liberals."



That seems to be THE favorite around here in Santorum Corner

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>I buy a lot of "organic" fruits and veggies, but I don't really care about the label so
>much...as if a certifying body gives it legitimacy

Just means that someone is ensuring that they are not just taking factory farmed chicken, letting them outside for five minutes and claiming they are "organically raised free range chicken."

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billvon

>I buy a lot of "organic" fruits and veggies, but I don't really care about the label so
>much...as if a certifying body gives it legitimacy

Just means that someone is ensuring that they are not just taking factory farmed chicken, letting them outside for five minutes and claiming they are "organically raised free range chicken."



this is exactly why it's ideal to have some sort of relationship with the farmer or rancher that actually grew or raised your food. You dont have to be best pals but looking a farmer in the eye and asking how his food is produced sure as heck beats reading a label and hoping that it represents what you are hoping it does.

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>this is exactly why it's ideal to have some sort of relationship with the farmer or
>rancher that actually grew or raised your food. You dont have to be best pals but
>looking a farmer in the eye and asking how his food is produced sure as heck beats
>reading a label and hoping that it represents what you are hoping it does.

Agreed. We've been down to our local CSA to meet the people and see the fields. But that's not always possible, which is where certification organizations can be useful.

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billvon

>I buy a lot of "organic" fruits and veggies, but I don't really care about the label so
>much...as if a certifying body gives it legitimacy

Just means that someone is ensuring that they are not just taking factory farmed chicken, letting them outside for five minutes and claiming they are "organically raised free range chicken."



I get mine from my neighbors.. who grow chicks for eggs in spring ... usually Arucana or Rhode Island Reds... and the young roosters are unneeded.... and whacked while the girls who only need one rooster around.. get on with their job. ;)

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billvon


Agreed. We've been down to our local CSA to meet the people and see the fields. But that's not always possible, which is where certification organizations can be useful.



very true point. Just like any other regulatory body in the US, there is of course special interest groups and lobbyists that want to control the way things are regulated. Sad state of affairs but reality.

Someone could drive themselves crazy if they spent all their time trying to eat nothing but sustainably raised meat and produce. It's a give and take in my opinion. if organic is available right next to conventional i will typically just go organic but if it's not available then i will just buy what is available.

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that_guy

technically if all you want is eggs from your hens you could go ahead and whack all the males. no rooster needed for the girls to still do their jobs.

shhhhh, don't tell




Uh if you want the next generation of chickens.. you sort of have to have the roosters input... so the neighbors tend to keep that noisy bastard around... great alarm clock when its warm and the windows are open...

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champu

And, again, complaints of excessive sodium and sugars are completely valid. I agree with that a lot more than I agree with complaints about food dyes. But complaining about the foods being "processed" is like people bitching about "liberals."

so you are saying that the processed food complaint is valid.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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turtlespeed

***And, again, complaints of excessive sodium and sugars are completely valid. I agree with that a lot more than I agree with complaints about food dyes. But complaining about the foods being "processed" is like people bitching about "liberals."

so you are saying that the processed food complaint is valid.

Har har. I'm saying, "say what you actually care about."

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champu

******And, again, complaints of excessive sodium and sugars are completely valid. I agree with that a lot more than I agree with complaints about food dyes. But complaining about the foods being "processed" is like people bitching about "liberals."

so you are saying that the processed food complaint is valid.

Har har. I'm saying, "say what you actually care about."

:D

I couldn't resist.mmi tried, I really did, but will power ain't so good, eh?
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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billvon

>I buy a lot of "organic" fruits and veggies, but I don't really care about the label so
>much...as if a certifying body gives it legitimacy

Just means that someone is ensuring that they are not just taking factory farmed chicken, letting them outside for five minutes and claiming they are "organically raised free range chicken."



Well, the problem is that you then have to know exactly what the label means and what the standards are of the labeling body. For instance free range poultry are often chickens that have been raised indoors only for the majority of their short lives and then are placed in a barn that has "access" to a small outdoor yard towards the very end of its life. however by then the chicken has been so habituated to be indoors that it never actually sets foot outdoors. Because USDA regulations for "free-range" poultry only require that the animal has have access to the outside. It says nothing about the quality of size of the ourdoor range, nor the length of time the animal has had access to that range.

So, that's perfectly legal but not exactly what most consumers are after when they are buying free range poultry. Indeed, it is pretty much exactly what you say the label of free range is preventing--except they aren't actually letting the outside for the five minutes. Here's a good primer:

http://www.salon.com/2011/01/20/what_chicken_labels_really_mean/

I may be naive, but I actually prefer to talk to the farmer and have an invitation to go see the farm any time I want. I generally believe the woman who sold me eggs at the farmer's market last saturday that they are actually organic and free-range. The Indutrial-organic complex is often pretty much the same as the other stuff and is just a way to charge more for the same product.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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