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jclalor

South Carolina to remove Confederate flag

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billeisele





Over the years there have been people and organizations that have made it into a racist symbol and made it into a racist discussion.



You only have to read the justification for the Confederacy in its Vice President's "Cornerstone Speech" of 1861 in order to realize that it IS a symbol of white supremacy and racism. It was such a symbol from day 1, and it still is. Trying to pretend otherwise is just revisionist history to justify the indefensible.
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billeisele

The flag is part of our history and heritage. I believe it's time to take it down because it's not part of our future. We'll see what happens.



this is a positive way of stating it - I like it a lot

(it's a racist symbol to me and mostly negative, but I can't presume to speak for everyone else)

every other comment I've heard on it is snotty, and hateful, and counterproductive - both sides

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Just watched an interview with the President of the Columbia Urban League (black guy) and a history (white) guy representing the other side of the debate. Unfortunately the Urban League guy misrepresented the facts. To have constructive open dialogue people must be truthful.

This story has two sides and it won't easily be solved.

This is an article for the - keep the flag crowd.

COLUMBIA, SC (WIS) -
While many have rallied behind removing the Confederate flag from the State House grounds in the wake of a shooting that took the lives of nine church members in Charleston, a strong contingent of flag supporters have spoken out to keep the flag where it stands.

Jeff O'Cain is a former commander of the local Sons of Confederate Veterans chapter and a history buff.

His great-great-grandfather fought in South Carolina's first infantry. O'Cain says his grandfather was fighting to protect his state and family.

"This is my great-great-grandfather Major Watson A. O'Cain, first regiment, South Carolina infantry, Hagood's brigade," said O'Cain. "His battle flag was a Confederate flag, and that monument and that flag are his war memorial."

He says his appreciation for the flag isn't about an old way of life, and it isn't about slavery or racial tensions. He just doesn't want his ancestor's devotion to state and country to be pushed aside or forgotten.

"We have a war memorial up there for every war South Carolinians have fought in," said O'Cain. "That Confederate flag belongs exactly where it should be because the State of South Carolina called upon those men to go to war. And they did."

O'Cain served in Vietnam and his grandfather served in World War II. He says they both view the American flag as their battle flag and the Confederate flag as the battle flag of his great great grandfather.

"People say we ought to get over it," said O'Cain. "We lost the war. I'm not trying to fight the war. I'm an American! And my father, and my grandfather and my great-grandfather wore the uniform and carried the rifle in defense of America. And my great-great-grandfather, at his time, took up arms to defend his country -- the Confederacy,"


If you want to follow this story and hear the debate go to www.wistv.com. This is the largest TV station in the state and it will cover the issue.
Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

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I can't verify it right at the moment, but I think I read somewhere that the confederate flag didn't start getting widespread use across the south until the 1950's, when the Civil Rights movement was just getting started.

Anybody?
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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rehmwa

***The flag is part of our history and heritage. I believe it's time to take it down because it's not part of our future. We'll see what happens.



this is a positive way of stating it - I like it a lot

(it's a racist symbol to me and mostly negative, but I can't presume to speak for everyone else)

every other comment I've heard on it is snotty, and hateful, and counterproductive - both sides

How do you feel about these words explaining the principles on which the Confederacy was founded, by its own Vice President. Take particular notice that the "CORNER STONE" on which the confederacy is based is white supremacy and enslavement of negroes:

The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.”

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature’s laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material-the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made “one star to differ from another star in glory.” The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws. This stone which was rejected by the first builders “is become the chief of the corner” the real “corner-stone” in our new edifice. I have been asked, what of the future? It has been apprehended by some that we would have arrayed against us the civilized world. I care not who or how many they may be against us, when we stand upon the eternal principles of truth, if we are true to ourselves and the principles for which we contend, we are obliged to, and must triumph.

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billeisele


This is an article for the - keep the flag crowd.

COLUMBIA, SC (WIS) -
While many have rallied behind removing the Confederate flag from the State House grounds in the wake of a shooting that took the lives of nine church members in Charleston, a strong contingent of flag supporters have spoken out to keep the flag where it stands.

Jeff O'Cain is a former commander of the local Sons of Confederate Veterans chapter and a history buff.

His great-great-grandfather fought in South Carolina's first infantry. O'Cain says his grandfather was fighting to protect his state and family.



I don't know whether any of my ancestors fought for an outfit whose "cornerstone" principles were so thoroughly disgusting. I hope they didn't. However, if they did, I sure wouldn't be agitating to advertise its main symbol in a public place.
...

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Anvilbrother

Yea the Dixiecrats were the one to use it in 1948. By the way they were a segregationist breakaway from the democrats.



It's remarkable how different things are now:

www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/23/meet-earl-holt-whose-supremacist-site-influenced-alleged-charleston-church-killer-dylann-roof/
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kallend

How do you feel about these words explaining the principles on which the Confederacy was founded, by its own Vice President....



I don't feel that great at all about them. I find them ignorant and self serving and terrible.

And regardless of how you interpret that other statement (billeisele's), I just read the words - it simply acknowledges that the past exists and the future should be better......

Vs trying to fix the future by answering old hate with new hate......

I'm not sure what you take exception to "I believe it's time to take it down because it's not part of our future."

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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rehmwa

***How do you feel about these words explaining the principles on which the Confederacy was founded, by its own Vice President....



I don't feel that great at all about them. I find them ignorant and self serving and terrible.

And regardless of how you interpret that other statement, I just read the words - it simply acknowledges that the past exists and the future should be better......

Vs trying to fix the future by answering old hate with new hate......

I'm not sure what you take exception to billeisele's state "I believe it's time to take it down because it's not part of our future."

What I take exception to is revisionist historians who try to claim that secession and the civil war was not about slavery and white supremacy. The words of the Confederacy's own leaders show that slavery and white supremacy were exactly what it was about. The Confederacy was "cornerstoned" on evil principles and its symbol has no more place of honor in public than does a Nazi banner, regardless of whether or not your great great grandfather fought under it.
...

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kallend

***
This is an article for the - keep the flag crowd.

COLUMBIA, SC (WIS) -
While many have rallied behind removing the Confederate flag from the State House grounds in the wake of a shooting that took the lives of nine church members in Charleston, a strong contingent of flag supporters have spoken out to keep the flag where it stands.

Jeff O'Cain is a former commander of the local Sons of Confederate Veterans chapter and a history buff.

His great-great-grandfather fought in South Carolina's first infantry. O'Cain says his grandfather was fighting to protect his state and family.



I don't know whether any of my ancestors fought for an outfit whose "cornerstone" principles were so thoroughly disgusting. I hope they didn't. However, if they did, I sure wouldn't be agitating to advertise its main symbol in a public place.

Your ancestors as well as mine are the ones who promulgated slavery as it came to be part of the building of the colonies. They were built on the backs of white slaves and black slaves...
England found it convenient to set up a trading scheme that relied on their ships transporting "undesirable" Irish, Scottish and English persons to the New World. selling them for a profit then loading the ships with Rum and other commodities of the New World to sell in the Old World. Many of my earliest First Immigrants came to this continent to escape the English Civil War. Others were indentured or captives sold to the new world by Cromwellian edicts for not following particular brand of Christianity. American Colonial history is very dependent on that was going on in the British Isles at the time.

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>What I take exception to is revisionist historians who try to claim that secession and
>the civil war was not about slavery and white supremacy.

Slavery was one thing the Civil War was about. As with most wars, that was far from the only thing it was about.

> The Confederacy was "cornerstoned" on evil principles . . . .

Well, so was the US. (Keep in mind that the original US Constitution required people to return escaped slaves to their owners.) But we changed with time, and still use the same basic flag that flew when that Constitution was written.

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Amazon

******
This is an article for the - keep the flag crowd.

COLUMBIA, SC (WIS) -
While many have rallied behind removing the Confederate flag from the State House grounds in the wake of a shooting that took the lives of nine church members in Charleston, a strong contingent of flag supporters have spoken out to keep the flag where it stands.

Jeff O'Cain is a former commander of the local Sons of Confederate Veterans chapter and a history buff.

His great-great-grandfather fought in South Carolina's first infantry. O'Cain says his grandfather was fighting to protect his state and family.



I don't know whether any of my ancestors fought for an outfit whose "cornerstone" principles were so thoroughly disgusting. I hope they didn't. However, if they did, I sure wouldn't be agitating to advertise its main symbol in a public place.

Your ancestors as well as mine are the ones who promulgated slavery as it came to be part of the building of the colonies. They were built on the backs of white slaves and black slaves...

Indeed they were. However, show me one document that indicates that the "cornerstone" of that government was slavery and subordination of "inferior races".

Recall that between 1808 and 1860, the West Africa Squadron of the British Navy captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans. Britain was fighting to free African slaves before the Confederacy was even founded.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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billvon

>What I take exception to is revisionist historians who try to claim that secession and
>the civil war was not about slavery and white supremacy.

Slavery was one thing the Civil War was about. As with most wars, that was far from the only thing it was about.

> The Confederacy was "cornerstoned" on evil principles . . . .

Well, so was the US. (Keep in mind that the original US Constitution required people to return escaped slaves to their owners.) But we changed with time, and still use the same basic flag that flew when that Constitution was written.



That does not fit the definition of a "cornerstone", which is a foundation. The Confederacy was founded on the principles of white supremacy and enslavement of African races according to its own Vice President. I don't recall any of the US founding fathers claiming any such foundation for the USA.
...

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billeisele


"We have a war memorial up there for every war South Carolinians have fought in," said O'Cain. "That Confederate flag belongs exactly where it should be because the State of South Carolina called upon those men to go to war. And they did."



But by the same logic (and yes, I know, Godwin) he could argue that Germany should fly Swastikas over their War memorials and the Reichstag because their country called upon those men to go to war. And they did.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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kallend

***



Over the years there have been people and organizations that have made it into a racist symbol and made it into a racist discussion.



You only have to read the justification for the Confederacy in its Vice President's "Cornerstone Speech" of 1861 in order to realize that it IS a symbol of white supremacy and racism. It was such a symbol from day 1, and it still is. Trying to pretend otherwise is just revisionist history to justify the indefensible.

Well, ....except for 1992.

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JohnnyMarko


I was just warning others. I'm at work but I click NSFW links all day long.



That sounds like good work when you can find it.:|
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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ryoder

***
I was just warning others. I'm at work but I click NSFW links all day long.



That sounds like good work when you can find it.:|

You should see the size of his right arm.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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ryoder

***
I was just warning others. I'm at work but I click NSFW links all day long.



That sounds like good work when you can find it.:|

Heh?

I work in oil and gas, I'm pretty tame compared to some of these other folks. I also work from home most days since we're a pretty small company (I'm 50% of the work force).

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