9 African Americans shot in a church in Charleston SC

[RonD1120 58]

The five fundamentals of Christian fundamentalism

1. Inerrancy of the Bible.
2. Literal truth of the Bible.
3. The virgin birth and divinity of Jesus Christ. Fundamentalists hold this against encroaching materialism which denies the supernatural.
4. The doctrine of atonement through substitution, a Calvinist doctrinal innovation according to which Christ inserts his own perfect record, in place of ours, into the divine retributive mechanism. This fundamental is held in opposition to the early Church's "ransom" and "moral uplift" theories of atonement.
5. The bodily resurrection of Jesus and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ. This is a critical building block for Christian fundamentalist movements that deny responsibility for global warming, since the end of the world is near.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity

To the above I add, you must be "Born Again." It is that experience that binds us together. Not all who call themselves Christian are actually Born Again. Those folks only have a religious belief.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Amazon 7]

futuredivot

Clicked a random post to reply to-but just in case anyone is wondering what is happening in Charleston-There was a moving message from ministers black and white about strength, mourning, forgiving but not giving up. Hundreds of people of several races from all sorts of backgrounds joined in prayer. A fat hillbilly redneck held hands with an apparently wealthy white woman while a beautiful biracial toddler played with the keys hanging from his beltloop. South Carolina said that hate doesn't win here. Devisiveness doesn't win here. No way. Not today

Like

[rushmc 18]

Amazon

***Clicked a random post to reply to-but just in case anyone is wondering what is happening in Charleston-There was a moving message from ministers black and white about strength, mourning, forgiving but not giving up. Hundreds of people of several races from all sorts of backgrounds joined in prayer. A fat hillbilly redneck held hands with an apparently wealthy white woman while a beautiful biracial toddler played with the keys hanging from his beltloop. South Carolina said that hate doesn't win here. Devisiveness doesn't win here. No way. Not today

Like

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[firemedic 7]

Skyrad

******I, being a compassionate conservative, call for the death penalty. Put him alongside James Holmes in CO and take them both out at the same time; use a firing squad, with .50 caliber rifles.

Interesting.

Here is a quote from a daughter of one of Roof's victims:
"I will never be able to hold her again, but I forgive you," a daughter of Ethel Lance said. "And have mercy on your soul. You hurt me. You hurt a lot of people but God forgives you, and I forgive you." Source

I wonder which one of you is the real Christian?

Don

Lets face it the death penalty has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with retribution and vengeance. (If it were about justice then all the DP states would use Nitrogen gas)

Romans 12:19 'Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.'

Deuteronomy 32:35 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them."'

Leviticus 19:18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Proverbs 24:29 Do not say, "Thus I shall do to him as he has done to me; I will render to the man according to his work."

Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also...

1 Peter 3:9 not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.

1 Samuel 24:12 May the LORD judge between you and me, and may the LORD avenge me on you; but my hand shall not be against you.

I guess some folk don't read so well.

Completed it for you.

Romans 13:1-4 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

[jakee 1,254]

Yeah, Ron's quite fond of that one too. But he goes strangely quiet when you point out that it means, for instance, that Quislings and Vichy French were good Christians and resistance fighters were rebels against God.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

rushmc

In your world, "willful ignorance" as you call it, will always come from anyone who does not agree with you.

It doesn't, and you know it doesn't.

It does come from people who call university researchers and professors 'ivory tower intellectuals' who aren't in touch like Joe the Plumber is - as if they somehow don't live in the real world like everyone else. As if they somehow don't have to deal with mortgage payments, car loans, health insurance and school districts just like everyone else. As if the job of creating and conveying knowledge in their chosen field leaves no room left in their brains for understanding everyday life the way a good ol' blue collar working guy, or business owner, or CEO, or really anyone but an academic or liberal politician does.

It's a prejudice that has real consequences.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 58]

That is the first time the terms have been used in the SC. Your statement was misleading. And, who said they were good Christians?

All that is a product of your fantasy.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

jakee

***In your world, "willful ignorance" as you call it, will always come from anyone who does not agree with you.

It doesn't, and you know it doesn't.

It does come from people who call university researchers and professors 'ivory tower intellectuals' who aren't in touch like Joe the Plumber is - as if they somehow don't live in the real world like everyone else. As if they somehow don't have to deal with mortgage payments, car loans, health insurance and school districts just like everyone else. As if the job of creating and conveying knowledge in their chosen field leaves no room left in their brains for understanding everyday life the way a good ol' blue collar working guy, or business owner, or CEO, or really anyone but an academic or liberal politician does.

It's a prejudice that has real consequences.

Yep, it illuminates truth.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[champu 1]

rushmc

You know how we got here; it comes from pawning off responsibility for ones action on society. Abortion is a big part of this mind set. (not aimed at you specifically)

Unless you're inferring some sort of catch-22 situation whereby any woman who decides to get an abortion is, in doing so, demonstrating an awareness that would actually make her a good mother, then you kinda lost me on this comment.

If a woman gets pregnant and doesn't want to, or doesn't feel she is able to, raise and support a child then abortion is the least onerous course of action she can take in terms of placing a burden on society.

AndyBoyd

The reason I'm asking is that, generally, if someone is truly insane, the law says that the person isn't responsible for their actions. If the shooter here were genuinely insane, he might get sent to a mental institution instead of a prison, and might be released if he ever regained his sanity. I'm not sure exactly what S.C. would be on that. But would you have argued that the shooter here had to have been insane to do what he did. Would you be comfortable with him going to a mental institution instead of prison, with the possibility that he might be released some day?

I had a similar, possibly just related, discussion with quade about Chris Dorner back a couple years ago: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4442321#4442321

My personal opinion is that the argument/confusion stems from people wanting there to be some classification of crazy/insane that we could use to keep said people from having guns. I think people realize that it would have to be determined differently from how competence to stand trial or to be held accountable for ones actions is determined. What I don't think people realize or appreciate are the potential implications/challenges that defining "the new crazy" would have in terms of due process.

wolfriverjoe

From the article:

Quote

Rational public policy, including policies that allow reasonable restraints on gun access, simply isn't possible without an informed, engaged, and rationally thinking public.

So the desire for gun rights is based on ignorance?

The 'funny' part about that is that for most anti-gun folks, 'reasonable restraints' include outright bans on guns that have certain cosmetic features.

The push for said ban is written right in the Democratic Party's platform. It's their bag, baby. Bans on certain types of rifles, certain types of handguns, certain types of magazines, buying ammunition online, buying more than x rounds of ammunition at once, or buying certain types of ammunition are all worse than doing nothing. Time spent writing and pushing for those laws and the resultant time spent rallying against them and having to fight them in court is all time wasted.

[jakee 1,254]

RonD1120

That is the first time the terms have been used in the SC. Your statement was misleading. And, who said they were good Christians?

You've used the Romans quote many times. Whenever I've asked you what that means for people resisting against tyrannical governments you've never answered, you've only dodged.

Feel free to put the record straight though - who was obeying God's authority under the Quisling and Vichy governments, collaborators or resistance fighters? If you choose not to though, your position is clear.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 58]

jakee

***That is the first time the terms have been used in the SC. Your statement was misleading. And, who said they were good Christians?

You've used the Romans quote many times. Whenever I've asked you what that means for people resisting against tyrannical governments you've never answered, you've only dodged.

Feel free to put the record straight though - who was obeying God's authority under the Quisling and Vichy governments, collaborators or resistance fighters? If you choose not to though, your position is clear.

I know this is going down the rabbit hole.

People living in fear will band together and do whatever they think is appropriate to survive. I do not know nor do I think history provides an accurate analysis of each of those social types you mentioned. When, where and how often they attended a church is insignificant to their need to survive. Only God knows which ones were actually Christian. That is whether they had accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Regardless of what you and other heathens think, Christianity is not a social classification. At least in my mind and experience, it is a term reserved only for those individuals who have been Born Again.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[firemedic 7]

jakee

***That is the first time the terms have been used in the SC. Your statement was misleading. And, who said they were good Christians?

You've used the Romans quote many times. Whenever I've asked you what that means for people resisting against tyrannical governments you've never answered, you've only dodged.

Feel free to put the record straight though - who was obeying God's authority under the Quisling and Vichy governments, collaborators or resistance fighters? If you choose not to though, your position is clear.

There is plenty of information to show that resisting tyrannical governments is not in contradiction to the statements made in Romans.

http://www.worldmag.com/2014/08/was_the_american_revolution_sinful

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

I know this is going down the rabbit hole.

Only if you keep trying to dodge a simple question. Who was acting in accordance with God's law, collaborators or resistance?

I'll point out that when it comes to US forces carrying out questionable orders you have absolutely no problem reading Romans in black and white.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

firemedic

******That is the first time the terms have been used in the SC. Your statement was misleading. And, who said they were good Christians?

You've used the Romans quote many times. Whenever I've asked you what that means for people resisting against tyrannical governments you've never answered, you've only dodged.

Feel free to put the record straight though - who was obeying God's authority under the Quisling and Vichy governments, collaborators or resistance fighters? If you choose not to though, your position is clear.

There is plenty of information to show that resisting tyrannical governments is not in contradiction to the statements made in Romans.

http://www.worldmag.com/2014/08/was_the_american_revolution_sinful

The end point of that guy's article (which mostly consists of him making stuff up, by the way) is that the passage doesn't mean anything. Governments are God given, unless they're not and you should follow them, unless you shouldn't.

So why bring it up at all?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[firemedic 7]

I'm glad you finally got it!

[normiss 620]

Carrying a gun indicates that you are willing to take defend a human life. So much for THAT argument.

Perspective is everything, even on the South Side of Chicago.

[rushmc 18]

I stand by my reply

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,621]

airdvr

Well that's funny John. Back in the summer of 2013 you had this to say...

Quote

kallend wrote:

I just work there. Live in the 'burbs.

It's a beautiful city by the lake. Sure beats ANYTHING in Texas or Florida (well, except in January).

So I guess you live in the 'burbs when it's convenient...or is that live in the city?

2013 is NOT 2015.

I moved into the CITY in August 2013.

Easy enough to check on the FAA's online database, for someone who is interested in facts rather than insults. Unlike some people I don't conceal my identity here.


You may apologize for calling me a liar.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,621]

normiss

Carrying a gun indicates that you are willing to take a human life in the defense of property, on account of road rage, because you don't like a politician, or just that you THINK there may be a risk. So much for THAT argument.

Perspective is everything, even in America.

FIFY

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Anvilbrother 0]

kallend

***Well that's funny John. Back in the summer of 2013 you had this to say...

Quote

kallend wrote:

I just work there. Live in the 'burbs.

It's a beautiful city by the lake. Sure beats ANYTHING in Texas or Florida (well, except in January).

So I guess you live in the 'burbs when it's convenient...or is that live in the city?

2013 is NOT 2015.

I moved into the CITY in August 2013.

Easy enough to check on the FAA's online database, for someone who is interested in facts rather than insults.


You may apologize for calling me a liar.


My previous statement stands about you and your whole living situation, earlier you insinuated you have been living in the bad part of town for 37 years, but now you admit to living in the nice suburbs as of recent.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[kallend 1,621]

Anvilbrother

******Well that's funny John. Back in the summer of 2013 you had this to say...

Quote

kallend wrote:

I just work there. Live in the 'burbs.

It's a beautiful city by the lake. Sure beats ANYTHING in Texas or Florida (well, except in January).

So I guess you live in the 'burbs when it's convenient...or is that live in the city?

2013 is NOT 2015.

I moved into the CITY in August 2013.

Easy enough to check on the FAA's online database, for someone who is interested in facts rather than insults.


You may apologize for calling me a liar.


My previous statement stands about you and your whole living situation, earlier you insinuated you have been living in the bad part of town for 37 years, but now you admit to living in the nice suburbs as of recent.

Indeed I did for a few years. I lived in the CITY before that, and again now.

Not that it's any business of yours or airdvr's where I live.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Anvilbrother 0]

kallend

*********Well that's funny John. Back in the summer of 2013 you had this to say...

Quote

kallend wrote:

I just work there. Live in the 'burbs.

It's a beautiful city by the lake. Sure beats ANYTHING in Texas or Florida (well, except in January).

So I guess you live in the 'burbs when it's convenient...or is that live in the city?

2013 is NOT 2015.

I moved into the CITY in August 2013.

Easy enough to check on the FAA's online database, for someone who is interested in facts rather than insults.


You may apologize for calling me a liar.


My previous statement stands about you and your whole living situation, earlier you insinuated you have been living in the bad part of town for 37 years, but now you admit to living in the nice suburbs as of recent.

Indeed I did for a few years. I lived in the CITY before that, and again now.

Not that it's any business of yours or airdvr's where I live.

Well it is relevant when you claim something, are called out on it, have someone show up with proof, and then admit to it.

I dont care where you live, but now its proven you were not telling the truth as I suspected, so just quit using the whole I have always lived in the "hood" ploy.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[kallend 1,621]

Anvilbrother

************Well that's funny John. Back in the summer of 2013 you had this to say...

Quote

kallend wrote:

I just work there. Live in the 'burbs.

It's a beautiful city by the lake. Sure beats ANYTHING in Texas or Florida (well, except in January).

So I guess you live in the 'burbs when it's convenient...or is that live in the city?

2013 is NOT 2015.

I moved into the CITY in August 2013.

Easy enough to check on the FAA's online database, for someone who is interested in facts rather than insults.


You may apologize for calling me a liar.


My previous statement stands about you and your whole living situation, earlier you insinuated you have been living in the bad part of town for 37 years, but now you admit to living in the nice suburbs as of recent.

Indeed I did for a few years. I lived in the CITY before that, and again now.

Not that it's any business of yours or airdvr's where I live.

Well it is relevant when you claim something, are called out on it, have someone show up with proof, and then admit to it.

I dont care where you live, but now its proven you were not telling the truth as I suspected, so just quit using the whole I have always lived in the "hood" ploy.

I can't help it if you make incorrect inferences and then assume they are "proofs".

YOU wrote: "Do we not have the right to call someone out on something? 37 years in Chicago and he has never been a victim of any type of crime...I call bullshit."

Well, I have been in Chicago for 37 years. My workplace is in the 60616 zip code for the past 37 years. I go there 5 days/week (excluding vacations) for 37 years. And much of that time I also lived in the city, on the south side.

My original statement in this thread is correct, and verifiable with minimal effort by a search in the FAA's online database http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Lets not forget where this started. I said

Quote

Yea it sucks, but don't blame him he's the victim here. You respond to your environment, and yes the US is full of shit stains that would rather steal and kill than get a job and work. We were in the grocery store Tuesday getting food for the baseball game and when we got to the front of the store to check out there was about 9 cop cars everywhere. They had just been robbed.

My house has been broken into 2 times in 10 years, and another time just the storage shed was pried open. The fire station where I work at was robbed once and computers were taken, and another station was held at knife point until the guys working agreed to drive the guy across town and drop him off.

My inlaws were robbed by the home health nurse that was taking care of my invalid father in law. A couple months ago my coworker had his front door kicked in and tv and Xbox stolen. I can name dozens of other recent incidents. And this isn't even talking about the violent crimes and murders.

You replied

Quote

Fortunately I live and work on the south side of Chicago, so I have no such problems.

THEN ADDED.

Quote

No victimhood for me in 37 years here.

Implying you have been there in the ''Hood" for 37 years

Your then called out by someone else with information backing up my suspicions.

Quote

kallend wrote:
I just work there. Live in the 'burbs.
It's a beautiful city by the lake. Sure beats ANYTHING in Texas or Florida (well, except in January).

Quote

2013 is NOT 2015.

Then admitted it hasn't been 37 years in the bad part of town

I moved into the CITY in August 2013.

Its clear what happened John Kallend, just admit it.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[kallend 1,621]

You appear to be having a hard time reading tonight.

I have been in Chicago for 37 years. My workplace is in the 60616 zip code and has been for the past 37 years and 5 months. And much of that time I also lived in the city, on the south side, including right now, which is what I stated originally.

YOU made an incorrect inference and are trying to weasel out of it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.