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jgoose71

Jersey woman stabbed to death waiting for Gun Permit

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The left will be glad to hear that she is dead now so the permit will not be issued to her. We're keeping guns off the streets!

http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2015/06/nj_gun_association_calls_berlin_womans_death_an_ab.html

Highlights from the article:
Quote


Although the 39-year-old longtime hair stylist had filed a restraining order against suspect Michael Eitel, 45, the man allegedly attacked her shortly after 10 p.m. upon Bowne's arrival at her Patton Avenue home.

According to reports, Bowne submitted her application for a gun license on April 21 and went to see where the process stood two days before her death. Reports also indicate the police department had not yet received the results of her fingerprinting.

For first-time gun ownership applicants in New Jersey, a person must go to their local police station, take home forms to be filled out, submit to background investigations regarding their criminal history and mental health, be fingerprinted, pay pertaining fees and submit contact information for references. Police will then conduct a 14-point investigation and give an approval within 30 days.

In all, the 2- to 3-month timeline may be a little shorter, but usually longer, the chief said, noting that he was not aware of any 30-day constraint for his department to sign off on an application when asked about the state statute.



So if these kinds of restraints are acceptable on a right that shall not be infringed upon, there is no problem putting these restraints on voting rights, correct?
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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"Man bites dog" stories always make the news.

Meanwhile, on a typical day in the USA over 30 people will be shot dead in murders, very few of which get reported beyond the local news. Most of these will be shot by a family member or friend. USA has highest murder rate in the developed world, some 70% by gunshot. Exclude the shootings and the figures fall in line with other nations' murder rates.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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kallend


"Man bites dog" stories always make the news.

Meanwhile, on a typical day in the USA over 30 people will be shot dead in murders, very few of which get reported beyond the local news. Most of these will be shot by a family member or friend. USA has highest murder rate in the developed world, some 70% by gunshot. Exclude the shootings and the figures fall in line with other nations' murder rates.



We also never hear the stories about the lives guns save, which by some estimates is a lot more. The technical term would be "throwing out the baby with the bath water."
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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You know, one could reasonably deduce that if she'd been able to get her gun in time, she would have had the opportunity to defend herself.

There are cases of women shooting their husbands or ex-husbands who were hell bent on doing harm to them, in states where gun ownership are more prevalent.

I'm glad I live in such a state where I can reasonably defend myself against anything that might happen. The police aren't always going to be there for you when you need them the most.
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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lawrocket

Of course. But here we see a story that shows the down side.



The part of kallends stat he leaves out is that the majority of those he lists are criminals killing other criminals while committing criminal acts
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc

***Of course. But here we see a story that shows the down side.



The part of kallends stat he leaves out is that the majority of those he lists are criminals killing other criminals while committing criminal acts

And yet, the criminal in this case also did NOT need a firearm. Surely, the victim had other ways to defend herself in the meantime. If she could have gotten to her gun in time to save herself, why not a homemade pepper straw? Or a knife of her own? If she felt the need to have a more serious weapon, could she have procured a Taser? Does New Jersey even have CCW? If not, how would she have had a gun on her person as she was returning to her home?

There are so many possible alternative scenarios here that blaming her murder only on the red tape that kept her from carrying a firearm is ridiculous. It's also irresponsible. It's arguments/examples like these that enable the average person to stop thinking of other options or possibilities and go directly to, "I need a gun!"
See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

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TriGirl

And yet, the criminal in this case also did NOT need a firearm. Surely, the victim had other ways to defend herself in the meantime. If she could have gotten to her gun in time to save herself, why not a homemade pepper straw? Or a knife of her own? If she felt the need to have a more serious weapon, could she have procured a Taser? Does New Jersey even have CCW? If not, how would she have had a gun on her person as she was returning to her home?

There are so many possible alternative scenarios here that blaming her murder only on the red tape that kept her from carrying a firearm is ridiculous. It's also irresponsible. It's arguments/examples like these that enable the average person to stop thinking of other options or possibilities and go directly to, "I need a gun!"



I'm in agreement over the poor attitude this whole situation seems both to have demonstrated and to be eliciting. If you feel you need a gun at the ready either on your person everywhere you go with a CCW or loaded on your nightstand then you should also feel the need to do more than nothing while you try to make that happen or if the government eventually denies you either (I say "eventually" because, as you noted, this wasn't even to the point of applying for a CCW permit and New Jersey is "may issue" which means they don't actually issue.)

It's worth thinking about. Worst-case is you end up being more cognizant of your situation and you have a gun on you. Best-case is the thing you settled for gets the job done.

I wonder if the attitude of law enforcement agencies towards applicants plays a part in this too. I know in "may issue" counties in California if a person applies for a CCW, they don't exactly steer you towards maybe carrying some other defensive implement, they steer you towards the door. (I haven't applied by the way, but I've read a few rejection letters.)

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jgoose71

***
"Man bites dog" stories always make the news.

Meanwhile, on a typical day in the USA over 30 people will be shot dead in murders, very few of which get reported beyond the local news. Most of these will be shot by a family member or friend. USA has highest murder rate in the developed world, some 70% by gunshot. Exclude the shootings and the figures fall in line with other nations' murder rates.



We also never hear the stories about the lives guns save, which by some estimates is a lot more. The technical term would be "throwing out the baby with the bath water."

Oh yes we do. Every time a good guy with a gun takes out a bad guy with a gun it is all over Facebook, Twitter and DZ.COM
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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kallend

******
"Man bites dog" stories always make the news.

Meanwhile, on a typical day in the USA over 30 people will be shot dead in murders, very few of which get reported beyond the local news. Most of these will be shot by a family member or friend. USA has highest murder rate in the developed world, some 70% by gunshot. Exclude the shootings and the figures fall in line with other nations' murder rates.



We also never hear the stories about the lives guns save, which by some estimates is a lot more. The technical term would be "throwing out the baby with the bath water."

Oh yes we do. Every time a good guy with a gun takes out a bad guy with a gun it is all over Facebook, Twitter and DZ.COM

But not the mainstream media, like when an other than white is shot or killed by a whitey.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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TriGirl

******Of course. But here we see a story that shows the down side.



The part of kallends stat he leaves out is that the majority of those he lists are criminals killing other criminals while committing criminal acts

And yet, the criminal in this case also did NOT need a firearm. Surely, the victim had other ways to defend herself in the meantime. If she could have gotten to her gun in time to save herself, why not a homemade pepper straw? Or a knife of her own? If she felt the need to have a more serious weapon, could she have procured a Taser? Does New Jersey even have CCW? If not, how would she have had a gun on her person as she was returning to her home?

There are so many possible alternative scenarios here that blaming her murder only on the red tape that kept her from carrying a firearm is ridiculous. It's also irresponsible. It's arguments/examples like these that enable the average person to stop thinking of other options or possibilities and go directly to, "I need a gun!"

I understand that. But j also saw a picture of her and a picture of him. I don't know hhe circumstances of the murder. If he ambushed her she probably wouldn't have stood a chance.

But it also appears he may have have a significant height and weight advantage over her. And also had a significant mindset advantage over her.

I don't much mind it going to guns, though. They are an option.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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Andy9o8

Waiting periods don't kill people; people kill people!



Yes, yes, but pools are racist.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Andy9o8

******Waiting periods don't kill people; people kill people!



Yes, yes, but pools are racist.

You can pee in a pool; you can't pee into a waiting period.

If you don't swim in my toilet, I won't pee in your pool.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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turtlespeed

*********Waiting periods don't kill people; people kill people!



Yes, yes, but pools are racist.

You can pee in a pool; you can't pee into a waiting period.

If you don't swim in my toilet, I won't pee in your pool.

Wait, wait! Guns don't kill toddlers, toddlers kill toddlers!

Good thing this little guy wasn't hampered by a waiting period. Now he'll never get to pee in the pool!

Hey, thanks for keeping me on track. I'm easily distracted.

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Andy9o8

************Waiting periods don't kill people; people kill people!



Yes, yes, but pools are racist.

You can pee in a pool; you can't pee into a waiting period.

If you don't swim in my toilet, I won't pee in your pool.

Wait, wait! Guns don't kill toddlers, toddlers kill toddlers!

Good thing this little guy wasn't hampered by a waiting period. Now he'll never get to pee in the pool!

Hey, thanks for keeping me on track. I'm easily distracted.

So we can put you down for being ok with the woman being killed because she couldn't get a gun.. Check.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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kallend


Meanwhile, on a typical day in the USA over 30 people will be shot dead in murders, very few of which get reported beyond the local news. Most of these will be shot by a family member or friend.



This would be one of those rather liberal definitions of "friend."

Acquintance would be the proper word, but even that suggests a positive relationship, not that it's a member of a rival gang member who you know as Crackerjack.

As funny as kallend's usual distortions are, it's troubling that at least two of you go on to blame the victim for not "doing something" to protect herself. She did, and the police and our failed concept of waiting periods failed her. Were she a FRIEND of mine, I'd lend her a weapon for the wait, along with the important element of taking her to the range.

This is why you get a gun before you actually need one. 10 days or 30/2-3 months is too long if someone else threatens you.

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kelpdiver

***
Meanwhile, on a typical day in the USA over 30 people will be shot dead in murders, very few of which get reported beyond the local news. Most of these will be shot by a family member or friend.



This would be one of those rather liberal definitions of "friend."

Acquintance would be the proper word, but even that suggests a positive relationship, not that it's a member of a rival gang member who you know as Crackerjack.

As funny as kallend's usual distortions are, it's troubling that at least two of you go on to blame the victim for not "doing something" to protect herself. She did, and the police and our failed concept of waiting periods failed her. Were she a FRIEND of mine, I'd lend her a weapon for the wait, along with the important element of taking her to the range.

This is why you get a gun before you actually need one. 10 days or 30/2-3 months is too long if someone else threatens you.

I was trying to figure what to say without it becoming a PA.
You nailed it for me-
I'm afraid the blame the victim crowd really pisses me off!
Rates right up there with Orange County judge Marc Kelly-now that guy's the epitome of a piece of shit!

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rushmc

***Of course. But here we see a story that shows the down side.



The part of kallends stat he leaves out is that the majority of those he lists are criminals killing other criminals while committing criminal acts

This data has been discussed prior. Subtract suicides; subtract criminal/criminal shootings - you still have gun deaths that are many multiples higher than any other advanced country.

If you clicked on Andy' link below, you'll also see the number of around 100 child accidental shooting deaths per year in US.
"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

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tkhayes

how many people with restraining orders against them successfully killed people that were armed with a gun? Probably far more that you think. your headline is bullshit and sensational, therefore dismissed.



Got any stats for that?

Honest question.

I searched around a bit and can't find any information that I trust.

And keep one thing in mind:

If the person being threatened has a gun, and the "threatener" (for lack of a better term) is aware of that fact, the knowledge may act as a deterrent.
In that case, an attack would never take place, and there would be no statistics about it.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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no I have no stats, but I expect that it has happened. Just like it has happened that people have asked for restraining orders and that has not helped or that people have been waiting for gun permits and that has not helped and that people had moved and that has not helped.

And the headline as posted is still sensational bullshit. looks like it came from Fox News....would lead the reader to believe that she was standing in line to get the gun permit when she was killed.

What was she REALLY doing when she was killed?....a more accurate headline might be 'stabbed to death while making sandwich' but that would not feed the hype for gun lobby....

Dallas cops got shot up by people last night. Lots of cops armed to the teeth with guns. the fact that all those cops had guns did absolutely nothing to stop or deter the attack apparently.

I expect that many domestic situations have lots of violence, lots of weapons on both sides and unless you are properly trained in the art of self defense, had the gun at the ready, and knew exactly when to utilize it, having a gun probably makes little difference in the outcome of the situation.

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