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swisschris62

Cop shoots unarmed kid -graphic

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I'll ask you again:
In all the training police go through, is there anything that puts them in the position of an innocent person, focused on some other task and perhaps with their hearing compromised by ear buds/music, who is unexpectedly confronted with an angry voice yelling behind them, or from somewhere in the darkness, and so on?

From the perspective of the police officer, they will always consider the subject of their attention to be a suspect, and so will consider any action other than instantaneous compliance as resistance. However in many instances the subject is innocent of any crime (they may just happen to fit a vague description, white male average height early 20s for example), do not consider themselves to be a "suspect" in anything, and are caught totally off guard by the situation. Is there any attempt to account for this in police training?

If I was walking somewhere, minding my own business, listening to music, and suddenly I hear someone screaming something from behind me, my first reaction would probably be to turn around to see what is going on. It almost certainly would not be to throw myself on the ground with my hands out, or whatever other command might be barked at me from out of the blue. It's disturbing, to say the least, to know that reacting to a disturbance in a completely natural and predictable way could not only get me killed, but also result in a judgement that it was somehow my fault so my family would be denied any compensation.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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Sorry thought it was more of a statement than question. Yes you go through training like that. When your doing your use of force training your always switching between officer/suspect. There are also shoot houses set up like any number of buildings, vehicles set up to do traffic stops. When doing that training sometimes the lights are dim, and everyone uses hearing and eye protection so you can't really hear or see.

I have also been a role player for the state departments ATAP program and been subject to surprise raids by military and police officers from around the world, and have been on the receiving end of this many times. They can't just shoot an innocent role player they have to respond to actions we do, while instructors are above watching. If I comply they have to also, if I'm behind a couch and stand up with my back facing them I can't be shot in the back, etc etc.

You are taught that under stress hearing is one of the first things to go then fine motor control, and vision last. That's why officers are taught to give loud simple commands so people can understand and hear you with the added benefit of witnesses also hearing the officers commands for later.

I you are supposed to play out the use of force properly, and give loud commands and ample time to respond, which this cop did not do. I can't go look at the video right now or I will loose everything I just typed, but I want to see how long it was from the time the guy noticed the cops, they approached him, and the the first shot.


Once again this cop was wrong if anyone continues to think I am defending him.

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GeorgiaDon

It's disturbing, to say the least, to know that reacting to a disturbance in a completely natural and predictable way could not only get me killed, but also result in a judgement that it was somehow my fault so my family would be denied any compensation.

Don



It is disturbing...hard to believe his family won't get a settlement.

This is also disturbing:
http://www.gofundme.com/cx70ow

I think we can do better...
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

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Here is a great breakdown of what happened frame by frame.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw1DSiJ5hEc

-The cops stage and make a plan on contacting the subjects that met the description of persons brandishing a firearm

-The cops pull up with their lights on all three subjects are outside and all notice the cops are there, and 2 of the 3 raise their hands

-Dillon turns around and starts walking down the sidewalk while the others continue to keep their hands up.

-Both officers are surrounding him, and are yelling commands, and one officer is in front and off to the side of him and witnesses agreed.

FRAME BY FRAME ENDS HERE

From the other original video you can stop/start pausing it and see the rest described below.

-Dillon puts his hands inside his waistband, and at that time both officers pull out their weapons without even having to coordinate that.

-Dillon turns around with both hands buried inside his waistband continues to walk backwards.

-He then pulls both hands up in a rather rapid manner and the cop shoots.

Total time from Dillon seeing the cops till he was shot 24 seconds. He knew the cops were there and not for a soda from the get go, his friends froze and raised their hands, he stuck his hands in his pants, and then turned around. Although none of it illegal it was a stupid fucking thing to do.

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next time we should just start yelling, "Just taze me bro, just fucking taze me!!!"

My only beef with the cops, especially highway cops, is that, they don't abide ANY, traffic rules and yet they get to write out tickets.

I haven't seen one cop going at the speed limit, and yet they write out speeding ticket. I thought that they are also supposed to obey the traffic rules unless in time of emergency.

Kinda like Rich Windstock who fails to follow safety rules thus resulting a hospitalization of two, himself and another innocent by stander, and still stay as a chairmen of USPA SnTA board and gets to take away other people's rating and yet he gets to keep all of his.
Oh, what do you know, he is a ex-cop as well..... Is there a trend?
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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Well, actually there is this G7 summit in southern Germany.

As per actual news, there were some riots, thousands of protestants, yeah: They even were hurling bottles with gaz; police decided to answer these attacks with water!! Can you imagine this??? And how those protestants all are dressed, the horror, baggy trousers, hoodies et al ...

And now imagine your well trained police officers facing such massive attacks: That'd be one bonfire of bullets!

Wear *wrong* clothes, move/don't move ..keep your hands in your jeans/don't do it/pull out your ID/don't do it ... that'll kill you. In America.

What a failure of the USofA. B|

Thx god, my kids/family/friends do not intend to visit the US in near future. My youngest presently is in Australia for a year, he surely will return home in good condition.

B|


dudeist skydiver # 3105

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Nope, don't work for the media or an ad firm.
I also didn't try to come up with a flashy title to get people to look at what I posted. I tried.to quickly describe what was in the video ...that's it.
I had no devious intentions whatso ever. As suspicious as you are over my title leads me to believe that you do what your suggesting I did. When you see a group of people hanging out at the beach playing frisbee and drinking beer and acting goofey do you describe the group as a group of adult men or a group of goofey kids?
Hard to believe that your a cop and have a hard time understanding how people describe what they are seeing. You really seem a little out of touch with reality if that's the case.
Me..Im 53 and a 3rd generation owner operator pulling a flatbed or step deck ( depending on the season) and run all over the US. Been doing this my entire life. I grew up in a very rural area.
Personally, I think your just trying to be difficult not understanding how someone describes a 'kid'.

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normiss

Because everyone fears a kid walking down the street listening to music?



when someone has called in stating that someones matching their descriptions had 'flashed a gun' then I guess, yeah, they may...
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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turtlespeed

***Because everyone fears a kid walking down the street listening to music?



In reality that is pretty subjective.

Location, circumstances, body language all fall into it.

and the fact someone had called in a gun call
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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swisschris62

I wasn't trying to be deceptive or make it sound worse..I said "kid", I didn't say "young boy".
I 'tip' the 'kid'at the truck wash.
The 'kid' drove by me on a rice rocket doing 150.

You don't use the word 'kid' when describing someone young who's clearly a 'kid'?



I don't generally call someone who's 20 or older a 'kid'. Maybe if they're 18 or 19, but definitely not 20 or older.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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You might call an 18 or 19 year old a kid but not a 20 year old?
Your kidding right?
See how these 3 guys are dressed in their baggy clothes and shorts...
Looks like your typical group of loser kids who are probably up to no good.
Doesn't mean they deserve to get shot.
The guy was wrong for walking away and it wasn't smart to put his hands in his pants but it was the cop who told him to take his hands out of his pants.
No sooner did he do that he got shot.
If these cops were so worried about a gun should they have ignored the other two and only focused on the one?

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cvfd1399

Here's a hint you missed the point of what was trying to be said to try and pin me down on some irrelevantly accurate number so I purposly toyed with you. You to this day still miss the fact that The only thing that was trying to be said was the starting point certainly isn't 75k everywhere......



That's clearly not true. If it was, why would it have been important to you at all? Why would you have started nit-picking about whether police start on $75k or not? What's so magic about $75k?

No - your point, as you made very clear, was that police aren't paid well enough to bother doing a decent job. To support that argument you claimed the average starting salary for a cop was $30k. The link you provided which you were apparently too lazy to read yourself (despite being asked to multiple times) showed it to be over 40% higher.

Again, I don't know about you but to me that's a lot of cash. Someone offers me a $12,500 raise you can be damn sure I'd be willing to start paying more attention.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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skypuppy

***Because everyone fears a kid walking down the street listening to music?



when someone has called in stating that someones matching their descriptions had 'flashed a gun' then I guess, yeah, they may...

Yeah... funny thing about that is that the kid doesn't know that call was made so there is zero reason for him to act accordingly.

The only thing he was aware of was that some angry cop was harrassing him for no reason. He might get that lot. There's no reason for him not to put his hands wherever he might normally put them, waistband, pocket, whatever. Then the cop pulls a gun, kid thinks, shit, I'd better show my hands and (as Don has been trying to explain) gets shot for no other reason than acting like a human being.

Like the guy who got shot reaching into his car for the documents he was told to reach into his car for. Normal people aren't trained on how to react with a gun in their face. They will move quickly because they're scared. If you're a cop and you don't know whether that movement will result in a gun being pulled then tough shit, you'll have to wait and find out. That's the job you chose.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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You still miss the fucking point!! I basically said don't complain when departments can't hire anyone good to work because tax payers don't want to pay for it.

He stated where he is they get paid $75k starting out.

I found the average range to be what I posted to show he isn't the norm.


You stormed in and wanted specific exact numbers, at that point I gave up on being honest with you. It was a generalization not a fucking economic thesis on cop salaries. 30k was mentioned again 30k,35k,40k who the fuck cares it's not 75k like he stated his department gets.

If you can't understand what was going on because of your bias to "catch" someone here being incorrect then I can't help you with that any longer.

I left a few grammar errors in there so you can get your rocks off finding those.

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Quote

Yeah... funny thing about that is that the kid doesn't know that call was made so there is zero reason for him to act accordingly.

The only thing he was aware of was that some angry cop was harrassing him for no reason. He might get that lot. There's no reason for him not to put his hands wherever he might normally put them, waistband, pocket, whatever. Then the cop pulls a gun, kid thinks, shit, I'd better show my hands and (as Don has been trying to explain) gets shot for no other reason than acting like a human being.

Like the guy who got shot reaching into his car for the documents he was told to reach into his car for. Normal people aren't trained on how to react with a gun in their face. They will move quickly because they're scared. If you're a cop and you don't know whether that movement will result in a gun being pulled then tough shit, you'll have to wait and find out. That's the job you chose.



https://youtu.be/o1UjKqzVDCw?t=47s

Officer: Get your hands out

Dillon Taylor: Na Fool, then he quickly draws his hands up.

UNDENIABLE proof he knew the cops were there, why they were there, and that he was just not following orders.

He should have said "ok im going to pull them out slowly, then one at a time slowly put each hand in the air."

Only an idot walks away from two cops with guns drawn puts his hands in his pants, says "Na fool" then jerks his hands out real fast.

After seeing and hearing this im changing my stance to suicide by cop.
https://localtvkstu.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/s-sl-shooting-dillion-facebook-post-2-explicit-copy1.jpg

Posted 2 days before his shooting

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Shits getting heated everywhere, I feel my time is coming soon, my nightmear are telling me. im gonna have warrnts out for my arrest soon. ALL my famly has turned and snitched on me. ill die before i go do a lot of time in a cell. im trying to strive and live but im done i literally cant stand breathing and dealing with my shit. I feel like god cant even save me on this one. at my fiance house in delta my lovely sister and my fiance saved me but this time coming its me and the demons im fighting.

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jakee

Normal people aren't trained on how to react with a gun in their face. They will move quickly because they're scared. If you're a cop and you don't know whether that movement will result in a gun being pulled then tough shit, you'll have to wait and find out. That's the job you chose.



As we've discussed in these threads before, this is a "running towards the gunfire [that isn't there.]" mentality brought about by active shooter training.

The problem is that this was clearly not an active shooter situation. If they're worried that the guy has a gun, what the hell are they doing closing to within ten feet out in the open when you can't see the guy's hands?

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You still miss the fucking point!! I basically said don't complain when departments can't hire anyone good to work because tax payers don't want to pay for it.



Yeah, and then supported that point by claiming that the average salary is far, far lower than it actually is. Do you not understand why that's important?

Quote

You stormed in and wanted specific exact numbers



No, that's not true. You do realise that the other thread still exists and that people can go and check these things, right?

You said (before I entered the conversation) that you had shown the average starting salary was $35k. I didn't ask for a specific number - you provided a specific number all on your own, I only asked where you had got it from, since it was clearly wrong. You then provided another, even more wrong specific number (again, of your own accord) showing that you were too lazy to even read your own sources or bother about whether your argument was based on valid information.

Quote

at that point I gave up on being honest with you.



Ah! So finally you come clean: when you're caught in an error you just start lying instead of admitting it. To be honest, that was all I wanted you to say. In future though dude, just own up when you're wrong. It's so much easier for you in the long run.

Quote

If you can't understand what was going on because of your bias to "catch" someone here being incorrect then I can't help you with that any longer.



And if you can't understand that reading sources properly and having correct information is an important part of the validity of your argument then you need help. That stuff's important in real life, not just here.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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UNDENIABLE proof he knew the cops were there, why they were there, and that he was just not following orders.



How could he possibly know why they were there? How does that video in any way show that he knew the cops had been told he had a gun?

What it does show, just like the guy at the garage, is that he was shot for following orders. He was told to take his hands out. He took his hands out. Bang.

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He should have said "ok im going to pull them out slowly, then one at a time slowly put each hand in the air."



How does he know that? When do you think he was trained to do that?

Again, if you're a cop and some guy who may or may not have a gun takes his hands out of his pockets you don't shoot him until you see a gun. If that's more dangerous to you, tough shit. It's your job, you chose it, no-one made you do it.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Police_Officer/Salary

This graph is for average salary for a police officer(non supervisor position) in the US
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Total Pay $30,720 - $81,273



Low starting average starting $30,720 top average $81,273 I added 5K on the higher end to account for state supplemental hazard pay.

Which ends up at $35,720. So exactly where was I lying?

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How could he possibly know why they were there? How does that video in any way show that he knew the cops had been told he had a gun?

What it does show, just like the guy at the garage, is that he was shot for following orders. He was told to take his hands out. He took his hands out. Bang.



Are you purposely ignoring the part when the cops said put your hands up and he says. NA FOOL.

What does that imply to you what Dillon was thinking? Im not asking you to be a cop at that specific time, im talking right here right now what do you think Dillon was trying to do? A depressed, documented suicidal person confronted by cops with guns understanding the situation he is in and says Na fool to an armed cop, then jerks his hands up?

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Ok yea that was my bad he knew what they were wanting him to do is what I should have said. I'm in the process of mediating fights of an all girl slumber party tonight so posts are happening quickly between pillow fights and hurt feelings. :D

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