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rushmc

"Sea Ice News Volume 6 #1: Antarctic Sea Ice Expands To New Record"

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Bipolar disorder continues, Arctic reaches lowest maximum extent while the Antarctic sets new records



This is interesting because of a study that indicates that the planet works toward a balance. ( I posted in another thread)

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/05/05/sea-ice-news-volume-6-1-antarctic-sea-ice-expands-to-new-record/

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Time to take a quick look at the sea ice situation down under, as I must have missed it on BBC News. According to NSIDC, a new record high has been set for April, beating last year. Ice is above average virtually all around the continent. Meanwhile, according to Bob Tisdale, Southern Ocean surface temperatures continue to plunge. It really does not take a genius to add two and two together. –Paul Homewood


"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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>Arctic reaches lowest maximum extent while the
>Antarctic sets new records

True; both are losing ice at record rates.

========================
Gravity data show that Antarctic ice sheet is melting increasingly faster
Fri, 05/01/2015 - 10:51am
Princeton University

During the past decade, Antarctica's massive ice sheet lost twice the amount of ice in its western portion compared with what it accumulated in the east, according to Princeton University researchers who came to one overall conclusion -- the southern continent's ice cap is melting ever faster.

The researchers "weighed" Antarctica's ice sheet using gravitational satellite data and found that from 2003 to 2014, the ice sheet lost 92 billion tons of ice per year, the researchers report in the journal Earth and Planetary Science Letters. If stacked on the island of Manhattan, that amount of ice would be more than a mile high -- more than five times the height of the Empire State Building.

The vast majority of that loss was from West Antarctica, which is the smaller of the continent's two main regions and abuts the Antarctic Peninsula that winds up toward South America. Since 2008, ice loss from West Antarctica's unstable glaciers doubled from an average annual loss of 121 billion tons of ice to twice that by 2014, the researchers found. The ice sheet on East Antarctica, the continent's much larger and overall more stable region, thickened during that same time, but only accumulated half the amount of ice lost from the west, the researchers reported.

"We have a solution that is very solid, very detailed and unambiguous," said co-author Frederik Simons, a Princeton associate professor of geosciences. "A decade of gravity analysis alone cannot force you to take a position on this ice loss being due to anthropogenic global warming. All we have done is take the balance of the ice on Antarctica and found that it is melting -- there is no doubt. But with the rapidly accelerating rates at which the ice is melting, and in the light of all the other, well-publicized lines of evidence, most scientists would be hard pressed to find mechanisms that do not include human-made climate change."

Compared to other types of data, the Princeton study shows that ice is melting from West Antarctica at a far greater rate than was previously known and that the western ice sheet is much more unstable compared to other regions of the continent, said first author Christopher Harig, a Princeton postdoctoral research associate in geosciences. Overall, ice-loss rates from all of Antarctica increased by 6 billion tons per year each year during the 11-year period the researchers examined. The melting rate from West Antarctica, however, grew by 18 billion tons per year every year, Harig and Simons found. Accelerations in ice loss are measured in tons per year, per year, or tons per year squared.

Of most concern, Harig said, is that this massive and accelerating loss occurred along West Antarctica's Amundsen Sea, particularly Pine Island and the Thwaites Glacier, where heavy losses had already been recorded. An iceberg more than 2,000 square miles in size broke off from the Thwaites Glacier in 2002.

In Antarctica, it's the ocean currents rather than air temperatures that melt the ice, and melted land ice contributes to higher sea levels in a way that melting icebergs don't, Harig said. As the ocean warms, floating ice shelves melt and can no longer hold back the land ice.

"The fact that West Antarctic ice-melt is still accelerating is a big deal because it's increasing its contribution to sea-level rise," Harig said. "It really has potential to be a runaway problem. It has come to the point that if we continue losing mass in those areas, the loss can generate a self-reinforcing feedback whereby we will be losing more and more ice, ultimately raising sea levels by tens of feet."

http://www.ecnmag.com/news/2015/05/gravity-data-show-antarctic-ice-sheet-melting-increasingly-faster

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billvon

>Arctic reaches lowest maximum extent while the
>Antarctic sets new records

True; both are losing ice at record rates.

========================
Gravity data show that Antarctic ice sheet is melting increasingly faster
Fri, 05/01/2015 - 10:51am
Princeton University

During the past decade, Antarctica's massive ice sheet lost twice the amount of ice in its western portion compared with what it accumulated in the east, according to Princeton University researchers who came to one overall conclusion -- the southern continent's ice cap is melting ever faster.

The researchers "weighed" Antarctica's ice sheet using gravitational satellite data and found that from 2003 to 2014, the ice sheet lost 92 billion tons of ice per year, the researchers report in the journal Earth and Planetary Science Letters. If stacked on the island of Manhattan, that amount of ice would be more than a mile high -- more than five times the height of the Empire State Building.

The vast majority of that loss was from West Antarctica, which is the smaller of the continent's two main regions and abuts the Antarctic Peninsula that winds up toward South America. Since 2008, ice loss from West Antarctica's unstable glaciers doubled from an average annual loss of 121 billion tons of ice to twice that by 2014, the researchers found. The ice sheet on East Antarctica, the continent's much larger and overall more stable region, thickened during that same time, but only accumulated half the amount of ice lost from the west, the researchers reported.

"We have a solution that is very solid, very detailed and unambiguous," said co-author Frederik Simons, a Princeton associate professor of geosciences. "A decade of gravity analysis alone cannot force you to take a position on this ice loss being due to anthropogenic global warming. All we have done is take the balance of the ice on Antarctica and found that it is melting -- there is no doubt. But with the rapidly accelerating rates at which the ice is melting, and in the light of all the other, well-publicized lines of evidence, most scientists would be hard pressed to find mechanisms that do not include human-made climate change."

Compared to other types of data, the Princeton study shows that ice is melting from West Antarctica at a far greater rate than was previously known and that the western ice sheet is much more unstable compared to other regions of the continent, said first author Christopher Harig, a Princeton postdoctoral research associate in geosciences. Overall, ice-loss rates from all of Antarctica increased by 6 billion tons per year each year during the 11-year period the researchers examined. The melting rate from West Antarctica, however, grew by 18 billion tons per year every year, Harig and Simons found. Accelerations in ice loss are measured in tons per year, per year, or tons per year squared.

Of most concern, Harig said, is that this massive and accelerating loss occurred along West Antarctica's Amundsen Sea, particularly Pine Island and the Thwaites Glacier, where heavy losses had already been recorded. An iceberg more than 2,000 square miles in size broke off from the Thwaites Glacier in 2002.

In Antarctica, it's the ocean currents rather than air temperatures that melt the ice, and melted land ice contributes to higher sea levels in a way that melting icebergs don't, Harig said. As the ocean warms, floating ice shelves melt and can no longer hold back the land ice.

"The fact that West Antarctic ice-melt is still accelerating is a big deal because it's increasing its contribution to sea-level rise," Harig said. "It really has potential to be a runaway problem. It has come to the point that if we continue losing mass in those areas, the loss can generate a self-reinforcing feedback whereby we will be losing more and more ice, ultimately raising sea levels by tens of feet."

http://www.ecnmag.com/news/2015/05/gravity-data-show-antarctic-ice-sheet-melting-increasingly-faster




Good deal
More ways to accumulated data (some conflicting with other studies in this case) and expand our knowelge and conversation.

That said however
We have an alarmist title to the arcticle which is a shame
It is hard to believe that some of the "conclusions" made in this article can be made with 10 years worth of data.

Since we do know that the smallest climate cycle are about 30 to 40 years, it will really be interesting to see what is happening decades from now

I gotta admit though, the 10 feet rise claim will raise the heart beats of those who trully have faith
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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DanG

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We have an alarmist title to the arcticle which is a shame



What is alarmist about "Gravity data show that Antarctic ice sheet is melting increasingly faster"?



Haven't you kept up with the new definition of Alarmist? As long as it says global warming is chapping, it's alarmist.
Remster

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True; both are losing ice at record rates.



I suppose for a 10 year period this is true
Do you think this statement was made for only 10 years by Bill?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Remster

***

Quote

We have an alarmist title to the arcticle which is a shame



What is alarmist about "Gravity data show that Antarctic ice sheet is melting increasingly faster"?



Haven't you kept up with the new definition of Alarmist? As long as it says global warming is chapping, it's alarmist.

this article is also interesting when one looks at the content and compare it to the article I linked in another thread that deals with how the planet it always seeking some sort of equilibrium.
Do you think a 10 year study could support or discount the claims of that study ?

All good stuff

When not presented in a way to spark an emotional responce
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Do you think a 10 year study could support or discount the claims of that study ?



You think a 10 year study on ice extent is too short a period, but your 17 year pause is definitive proof that global warming is a hoax.

- Dan G

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DanG

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Do you think a 10 year study could support or discount the claims of that study ?



You think a 10 year study on ice extent is too short a period, but your 17 year pause is definitive proof that global warming is a hoax.



Hmmm
A hoax?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Let's see:

Antarctic continent is losing tens of billions of tons of freshwater ice a year. Much of the freshwater run-off from this flows into the salty ocean which, due to its salinity, can actually be liquid below 0 degrees C. The freshwater run off which does freeze at 0 degrees C now freezes at the lower temperature so the Antarctic sea ice extent increases. Then there's the effect of changes in wind patterns due to climate change which also affects the sea ice extent.

There's no Arctic continent for a similar effect to happen. Consequently in the Arctic the sea ice is steadily decreasing.

What's up with THAT?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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kallend

******



What's up with THAT?



Nature.

And Marc swings back to Type 2.

Prove that it is not nature
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc

*********



What's up with THAT?



Nature.

And Marc swings back to Type 2.

Prove that it is not nature

Burden of proof is on the person making the claim. That would be you.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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rushmc

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Bipolar disorder continues, Arctic reaches lowest maximum extent while the Antarctic sets new records



This is interesting because of a study that indicates that the planet works toward a balance. ( I posted in another thread)

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/05/05/sea-ice-news-volume-6-1-antarctic-sea-ice-expands-to-new-record/

***Time to take a quick look at the sea ice situation down under, as I must have missed it on BBC News. According to NSIDC, a new record high has been set for April, beating last year. Ice is above average virtually all around the continent. Meanwhile, according to Bob Tisdale, Southern Ocean surface temperatures continue to plunge. It really does not take a genius to add two and two together. –Paul Homewood



Ain't it funny how ICE forms in the WINTER in the Southern Hemisphere?????

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kallend

************



What's up with THAT?



Nature.

And Marc swings back to Type 2.

Prove that it is not nature

Burden of proof is on the person making the claim. That would be you.

Ah
You are making the claim man is changing things

the burden is on you prof
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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DanG

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We have an alarmist title to the arcticle which is a shame



What is alarmist about "Gravity data show that Antarctic ice sheet is melting increasingly faster"?



The thread is about sea ice. Just like Rush or others would hijack a sheet ice thread with stuff about antarctic sea ice bill just hijacked rush's thread.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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There's a difference between hijacking a thread, and noting that limiting the scope of the thread to only sea ice doesn't tell the whole story. But of course you know that the focus on sea ice is intended to obfuscate the big picture.

- Dan G

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billvon

>bill just hijacked rush's thread.

Rush posted about how the Antarctic is setting new records. I agreed, and posted another record that it just set. This is called "discussion."



Agreed there. But. Considering how different the accretion processes are I pretty much think they should be kept separate since they tend to obfuscate.

Question: has anybody attributed sea level rise to loss of mass of Antarctica glacier ice?


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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>Considering how different the accretion processes are I pretty much think they should
>be kept separate since they tend to obfuscate.

They are different - but related. As more ice flows into the sea (and as melting ice decreases the salinity of nearby water) sea ice will tend to expand.

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rushmc

***************



What's up with THAT?



Nature.

And Marc swings back to Type 2.

Prove that it is not nature

Burden of proof is on the person making the claim. That would be you.

Ah
You are making the claim man is changing things

the burden is on you prof

Incorrect. I gave a rational explanation for the increase in Antarctic sea ice. Human activity was not mentioned at all.

Nice but ineffective try at weaseling out of your statement, though.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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billvon

>Considering how different the accretion processes are I pretty much think they should
>be kept separate since they tend to obfuscate.

They are different - but related. As more ice flows into the sea (and as melting ice decreases the salinity of nearby water) sea ice will tend to expand.



That's what has been said. Except then the Arctic comes in. Record Arctic and Greenland glacier melts and breakup of ice shells have been reiterated ad nauseum over the last few years.

But then Arctic Ice is pointed out as being in a death spiral downward trend.

This is where things get troublesome. As far as I j know the laws of physics are the same at both poles. I also note that your statement would be an argument against a positive feedback loop.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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>This is where things get troublesome. As far as I j know the laws of physics are the
>same at both poles.

The laws of physics are, but the poles themselves are very, very different. One is a continent surrounded by an ocean; the other is an ocean surrounded by continents. You're going to see different effects.

(I mean, the laws of physics are also the same in San Diego and Florida. Doesn't mean that the climate is the same in both places.)

>I also note that your statement would be an argument against a positive feedback loop.

No, it's just positing a negative feedback loop. (ice melting leading to lower salinity, leading to more ice, leading to higher albedo and less absorbed energy.) Both positive and negative feedbacks are certainly in operation at both poles. Note that even the above negative feedback is insufficient to cause Antarctic temperatures to fall on average; they are still rising.

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