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kallend

Water and the southwest

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Elisha

This looks like a pretty good article summarizing the (California) situation.

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/10/8379221/california-drought-water-crisis



Here's another summary that seems relevant:

Rich Californians balk at limits: ‘We’re not all equal when it comes to water’

Quote

Yuhas lives in the ultra-wealthy enclave of Rancho Santa Fe, a bucolic Southern California hamlet of ranches, gated communities and country clubs that guzzles five times more water per capita than the statewide average. In April, after Gov. Jerry Brown (D) called for a 25 percent reduction in water use, consumption in Rancho Santa Fe went up by 9 percent.

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Yuhas lives in the ultra-wealthy enclave of Rancho Santa Fe



Rancho Santa Fe. You will never find a more wretched hive of snobbery and dickishness. They have gated communities with little marked areas outside the gates where the "help" gets dropped off in the morning.

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billvon

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Yuhas lives in the ultra-wealthy enclave of Rancho Santa Fe



Rancho Santa Fe. You will never find a more wretched hive of snobbery and dickishness. They have gated communities with little marked areas outside the gates where the "help" gets dropped off in the morning.



Driver: These are not the gardeners you are looking for.

Guard: These are not the gardeners we are looking for.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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If you're referring to crop rotation, farmers have been doing that since after the dust-bowl. For some reason, which I do not understand, it seems as though there is a faction in this country to do away with farmers and ranchers.

In Colorado the farmers and ranchers (at least, the ones who have ancestors who claimed water rights 100 years ago) even own the rain that falls from the sky. It is illegal, and punishable by a $500/day fine, to use or divert water that is coming off your roof. Ranching interests this year blocked passage of a proposed law that would have allowed homeowners to use a rain barrel to catch rain to water their garden.

The courts have not yet ruled whether or not farmers also own the clouds.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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GeorgiaDon

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If you're referring to crop rotation, farmers have been doing that since after the dust-bowl. For some reason, which I do not understand, it seems as though there is a faction in this country to do away with farmers and ranchers.

In Colorado the farmers and ranchers (at least, the ones who have ancestors who claimed water rights 100 years ago) even own the rain that falls from the sky. It is illegal, and punishable by a $500/day fine, to use or divert water that is coming off your roof. Ranching interests this year blocked passage of a proposed law that would have allowed homeowners to use a rain barrel to catch rain to water their garden.

The courts have not yet ruled whether or not farmers also own the clouds.

Don



Can you explain this more? Yes, I've read about these laws, but how can a governmental agency forbid one to use the water that falls from the sky on one's property? It lands on the ground or a structure then runs on to the ground. They can't do anything about it (practically speaking).

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Elisha

***

Quote

If you're referring to crop rotation, farmers have been doing that since after the dust-bowl. For some reason, which I do not understand, it seems as though there is a faction in this country to do away with farmers and ranchers.

In Colorado the farmers and ranchers (at least, the ones who have ancestors who claimed water rights 100 years ago) even own the rain that falls from the sky. It is illegal, and punishable by a $500/day fine, to use or divert water that is coming off your roof. Ranching interests this year blocked passage of a proposed law that would have allowed homeowners to use a rain barrel to catch rain to water their garden.

The courts have not yet ruled whether or not farmers also own the clouds.

Don



Can you explain this more? Yes, I've read about these laws, but how can a governmental agency forbid one to use the water that falls from the sky on one's property? It lands on the ground or a structure then runs on to the ground. They can't do anything about it (practically speaking).

They're doing it for our own good. Think of the children.

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GeorgiaDon

Quote

If you're referring to crop rotation, farmers have been doing that since after the dust-bowl. For some reason, which I do not understand, it seems as though there is a faction in this country to do away with farmers and ranchers.

In Colorado the farmers and ranchers (at least, the ones who have ancestors who claimed water rights 100 years ago) even own the rain that falls from the sky. It is illegal, and punishable by a $500/day fine, to use or divert water that is coming off your roof. Ranching interests this year blocked passage of a proposed law that would have allowed homeowners to use a rain barrel to catch rain to water their garden.

The courts have not yet ruled whether or not farmers also own the clouds.

Don



Sounds about like the EPA! They are trying to get control of damned near everything water related. In the case you supplied, appears like some of those farmers and ranchers got a little 'Rocky Mountain High' goin' on. :o


Chuck

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It's things like this that breeds violence against the haves by the have-nots. And there are plenty of guns in that state, too. Maybe the ranchers might have some perspective about their piggishness if a few of them have.... accidents.

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>Sounds about like the EPA! They are trying to get control of damned near everything
>water related.

Right, except in this case it's the farmers.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. In Colorado the farmers don't want you to "take" their water. ("How'd my irrigation water get on that guy's roof, anyway?") In the Central Valley, farmers are pumping so much ground water that the ground is dropping two feet a YEAR in some places - and then having someone else replace all the bridges and canals and roads and rails that are damaged. And they are still growing almonds and alfalfa because $$$. Meanwhile industries are having to shut down due to lack of process water. Companies that sell drinking water for human consumption are getting threatened with getting their water supplies cut off, while farmers growing alfalfa for cattle are pumping water as fast as they can.

We might have a wet year next year and everyone will go back to ignoring the problem. I sort of hope we don't, because we need to come up with solutions that work for dry years AND wet years, and does not prioritize cattle feed over water for human consumption.

I would also point out that we (as in the towns, farmers, ranchers etc) can solve this problem or the EPA can solve it for us. While I'd like to think that it can be solved at a local level, I have a feeling that greed will keep the farmers pumping as fast as they can, and it will eventually become a problem that the EPA (or equivalent government agency) has to solve.

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I agree with that, big time. We should have enough brain power at a 'local level' to solve the problem. We don't need some government agency sticking their nose in our business. Government agencies have gotten to big, too powerful and too damned costly.


Chuck

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masterrig

I've been thinking for some time that our next 'civil war' would be over water. We as a nation waste more water than we use.


Chuck



Houston has plenty. Maybe they'll send some.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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kallend

***I've been thinking for some time that our next 'civil war' would be over water. We as a nation waste more water than we use.


Chuck



Houston has plenty. Maybe they'll send some.

pity there isn't an infrastructure already in place to do just that. I guess aircraft carrier battle groups are more important than that.

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Hi Chuck,

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We should have enough brain power at a 'local level' to solve the problem.



But you do not. As mentioned above, it is all about greed.

Quote

We don't need some government agency sticking their nose in our business.



Sorry, but yes you do. Since the 'enough brain power' thingy is not working, then it is time for the gov't. to deal with it.

Or would you suggest a vote of the 7 Little Dwarfs to solve these problems; see the greed comment in the earlier posting.

Jerry Baumchen

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>>> We might have a wet year next year and everyone will go back to ignoring the problem. I sort of hope we don't, because we need to come up with solutions that work for dry years AND wet years, and does not prioritize cattle feed over water for human consumption.

The population centers will go back to ignoring the problem. The rural areas (who lack the votes to get anything done) will continue trying to get something done. And the legislators will pass a requirement that schools give ten hours per year of instruction on how droughts help with sustainable living

This has been HUGE here since before I moved here. I'm probably typical in that when I was living in the population center I just a didn't care so long as water came out the tap.

The California public demands its beef. Perhaps with a trade agreement California can import it's food from China.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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lawrocket


The California public demands its beef. Perhaps with a trade agreement California can import it's food from China.



FWIW, speaking of beef and water... >:(>:(>:(

The US has been putting up additional hurdles for years to reduce the export of Canadian beef to the US. I believe this is the third and final ruling from the World Court:

"Canada, Mexico win final round in battle against US meat-label rules"

"The United States has used and exhausted all possible means to avoid its international obligations,” said a statement from Canada’s agriculture and trade ministers."


source: http://globalnews.ca/news/2004037/canada-mexico-win-final-round-in-battle-against-us-meat-label-rules/

Not that it matters much. IIRC, I think we're still waiting for our money to be refunded (20 years on) for the tariffs levied by the US on our softwood lumber also ruled illegal by the World Court.

Water? Oh Jeebus, we have water (and snow, and ice). But like you, ours is not inexhaustible either. Some of use aren't too happy with the slope our politicians seem to have started.

"Outrage boils over as B.C. government plans to sell groundwater for $2.25 per million litres"

source: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Outrage+boils+over+government+plans+sell+groundwater+million+litres/10865416/story.html

"In 2011, Nestlé was listed No. 1 in the Fortune Global 500 as the world’s most profitable corporation"

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9#Joint_ventures

Most Canadians understand that it won't be long before our friendly neighbor comes calling. And our relationship will likely become very un-friendly, very quickly.

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masterrig

I agree with that, big time. We should have enough brain power at a 'local level' to solve the problem. We don't need some government agency sticking their nose in our business. Government agencies have gotten to big, too powerful and too damned costly.


Chuck

Yet, farmers were able to get laws passed that state that they own the water even as it falls from the sky. And, they were able to derail legislation that would have allowed homeowners to capture a small amount of that water to temporarily divert it to watering gardens. It doesn't matter that ultimately the water ends up in the soil, replenishing ground water that feeds the rivers, and so eventually reaches the farmers after a short but productive detour. It's their water dammit, and no-one else can touch it even if it happens to fall on someone else's land.

Just like California, the situation exists because the rights to use water were given to a small number of ranchers over a century ago. At the time, the intent was to encourage people to move West and homestead, and no thought was given to the day when the land would be full of people, industries, and farms that all need water. Now we have a situation where a stream may flow across your land, but you can be prosecuted for removing a single cup to drink. We have legislators comparing rain barrels to allowing people to go into stores and empty the shelves of bottled water without having to pay for it.

No amount of local "brain power" will be able to redistribute the water, because it was all given away to a few ranchers a century ago, they own it, and they will not willingly part with so much as a drop. Any solution will have to involve "re-negotiating" water rights, and if one side refuses to negotiate then legislative and judicial action (=government) is the only option left.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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