0
Driver1

Gun wielding good samaritan halts carjacking in progress.

Recommended Posts

DanG


You are about to blame Sandy Hook on gays.

This is SC gold.



This thread is the usual steaming pile of familiar bullshit, but you're right, this was a special (and new) one.

Whether or not you want to assert AIDS as the driving force (and it's a huge stretch), it's blatantly obvious that the societal impact of reducing privacy around mental health care will be negative if everyone is afraid to go.

On the main thread - if you want to debate the cost ogf guns or the cost of driving, you need to supply what you think the substitute cost will be.

ie, if you ban legal gun ownership, people are still dying. Criminals still can use a knife or baseball bat, or their firsts. Abusive boyfriends can beat to death their 100lb girlfriends or simply strangle them. And people won't be able to legally defend themselves. So the value doesn't go from 30 to 0. Tell us what you think the new number is.

Ending driving also will result in deaths. Battered wives and girlfriends can't escape effectively, get killed. Injured people can't get to the ER. People in rural areas starve, freeze, or don't get treated for injuries. So forth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hooknswoop

OK, you don't really want to discuss the issue. Never mind then.

Derek V



If you wish to discuss traffic accidents, start your own thread. This one is about guns.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If you wish to discuss traffic accidents, start your own thread. This one is about guns.



i am discussing guns. I am making point that is directly related to guns.

I asked you a simple question, after answering your questions. To move the conversation forward, answer my question. That is how a conversation works.

Derek V

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hooknswoop

Quote

If you wish to discuss traffic accidents, start your own thread. This one is about guns.



i am discussing guns. I am making point that is directly related to guns.

I asked you a simple question, after answering your questions. To move the conversation forward, answer my question. That is how a conversation works.

Derek V



Ha ha ha ha ha ha, good luck with that one! You're asking him to take a specific position and give a specific answer and he'll never do that, well, rarely!
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hooknswoop

If you don't want to discuss the issue, you should just say so.

Derek V



I'm perfectly happy to discuss traffic accidents in a thread about traffic accidents. Why don't you start one?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You said, "Not to mention the 30+ people murdered with guns in a typical US day." in response to someone with a concealed handgun preventing a car jacking. Your point (correct me if I am wrong), is that one save isn't worth 30 people dying per day by guns.

I am making the point that 90 people a day die from driving.

You know where I was going and are intentionally pretending I am discussing traffic accidents to avoid discussing the real issue:

The price society pays for certain freedoms and is society willing to pay that price.

There is no where near the level of disagreement over 90/day for driving as there is over 30/day for guns.

It comes down to is society willing to pay the price for the freedom? We have no problem with 90/day for driving. You refuse to answer that question, but we both know the answer. You, just like me and everyone else, accepts that 90/day die as the price of driving our cars.

Now, if you want to discuss the issue, fine. Let's discuss it. If you refuse to answer my questions, even after I answer yours, and you continue to intentionally misunderstand my posts, just say so, and I'll move on.

Derek V

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Well, if you want to compare traffic deaths & gun deaths



No, I want to discuss the price of freedoms/privileges. Specifically the cost in lives of gun ownership vs. restrictions of gun ownership.

Reducing the cost, means more restrictions. At the far end of the scale (0/day) is no guns. At the other end, no restrictions, will be more than the current 30/day.

There is a balance point between the cost and restrictions. For guns, to get even a small reduction would require large restrictions. I feel we are currently at a good balance point between the cost and restrictions.

I feel the same way about vehicles. We could lower the 90/day number, but that would require large restrictions for small gains. There isn't much debate about that issue.

Same thing for skydiving. A few years ago, there was a push for canopy restrictions, that I was in favor of. We probably would only have gotten a small decrease in cost for fairly large restrictions. There was a lot of opposition against the restrictions because skydivers accepted the cost with the current level of restrictions.

John Kallend was in this group; "Almost all my friends and family think skydiving of any nature is an unacceptable risk. I choose to accept the risk. Some people accept the risk of jumping under tiny canopies. Who am I to criticize?"- John Kallend 6 June, 2003.

"The burden of taking action is on those who want action taken. Personally, I think adults should be treated as such."- John Kallend 10 July 2010.

The debate over guns is an emotional one, on both sides. For me, it is very simple, is the current cost acceptable when compared to the level of restrictions? For me, the answer is yes. Reducing the cost will will require too much restriction of freedom.

Derek V

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Perhaps Derek will remind us when was the last time a mentally ill person walked into a grade school and killed 20 children with a parachute. What % of murders are committed with parachutes in the US every year? When was the last time a toddler found his mother's parachute and killed his sibling with it?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hooknswoop

I'm sorry John, I am not going to answer any more of your questions until after you answer mine. That is how a discussion works.

Derek V



Not with John it doesnt

He once answered a series of quesiton regarding guns
Those answers showed john would favor policies that would amount to a de facto gun ban.

He got ripped over that and to my knowelge, has never provided any honest answer since
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hooknswoop

I'm sorry John, I am not going to answer any more of your questions until after you answer mine. That is how a discussion works.

Derek V



I'll answer them for you then. Never, zero, and never.

That is why bringing extraneous issues into a discussion about guns is just that, extraneous.

Vehicles, swimming pools, parachutes... Just a lame attempts to divert attention from a real problem in the USA, which is that its level of gun violence is way out of line with every other developed western nation.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hooknswoop

Quote

Well, if you want to compare traffic deaths & gun deaths



No, I want to discuss the price of freedoms/privileges. Specifically the cost in lives of gun ownership vs. restrictions of gun ownership...



I understand that. I understood it the entire time. :)
It's actually a pretty valid comparison.

We accept being the country with the highest level of gun violence in the developed world as both a cost of our freedoms and an understanding that the vast majority of it happens between criminals.

We also accept the high level of traffic deaths and injuries as a cost of just about everyone having a car, a driver's license being ridiculously easy to obtain, cars that have power well beyond what is "reasonable and necessary" (I might point out that I have both a 300+hp car and a 450hp SUV, so I'm not any less culpable in that B|), and we have an insanely casual attitude towards drunk/impaired driving.

I keep seeing people point out that our gun deaths are the highest in the world, yet never (or rarely) see that our motor vehicle deaths are also very highly ranked (not #1, but we keep trying :P).
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe



I keep seeing people point out that our gun deaths are the highest in the world, yet never (or rarely) see that our motor vehicle deaths are also very highly ranked (not #1, but we keep trying :P).



Maybe when someone starts a thread with the title: "SUV wielding good samaritan halts crime in progress." So far I've not seen a thread like that and I've been around for a long time.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm sure my perception is skewed from reading this forum too much, but I get the impression that a lot of people are way more concerned about guns than they are about driving, which makes no sense to me. I go through most of my days without any thought/fear of guns, yet I have to deal with driving almost every day, and I know that statistically that is where I and my loved ones are most likely to get injured or killed. (Well, some exceptions there for other dangerous activities.)

Of course I wish that there was less violence in our country (and in the world), but I don't think guns are the reason for the violence. The worst school massacre in our history was mostly carried out with bombs. And just in the last couple of weeks there has been a murder/suicide carried out with an ax and another carried out with a chainsaw. And countless other violent acts every day that do not involve a gun . . . Yes, guns are often used in violent attacks, but looking at the big picture, it seems to me that we have more of a violence problem than a gun problem. Heck, even traffic accidents - many are caused by aggressive driving and/or a general disregard for others, which seems to be approaching violent behavior.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shotgun

... And just in the last couple of weeks there has been a murder/suicide carried out with an ax and another carried out with a chainsaw. And countless other violent acts every day that do not involve a gun . . . Yes, guns are often used in violent attacks, but looking at the big picture,.



Yes, look at the big picture:

Guns are used in 71% of all murders in the USA. Overwhelmingly handguns. All your axes, knives, garottes, poisons, baseball bats, cement overshoes... combined comprise less than half of the number of gun murders.

The USA has a murder rate roughly 4x higher than other western democracies.

To say that’s not related to the proliferation of guns, I think that’s just disingenuous.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kallend

***... And just in the last couple of weeks there has been a murder/suicide carried out with an ax and another carried out with a chainsaw. And countless other violent acts every day that do not involve a gun . . . Yes, guns are often used in violent attacks, but looking at the big picture,.



Yes, look at the big picture:

Guns are used in 71% of all murders in the USA. Overwhelmingly handguns. All your axes, knives, garottes, poisons, baseball bats, cement overshoes... combined comprise less than half of the number of gun murders.

The USA has a murder rate roughly 4x higher than other western democracies.

To say that’s not related to the proliferation of guns, I think that’s just disingenuous.

I doubt it is as disingenuous as you would like to believe, and the onus lies more on the culture of the poor here vs the poor in other western democracies.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kallend

***... And just in the last couple of weeks there has been a murder/suicide carried out with an ax and another carried out with a chainsaw. And countless other violent acts every day that do not involve a gun . . . Yes, guns are often used in violent attacks, but looking at the big picture,.



Yes, look at the big picture:

Guns are used in 71% of all murders in the USA. Overwhelmingly handguns. All your axes, knives, garottes, poisons, baseball bats, cement overshoes... combined comprise less than half of the number of gun murders.

The USA has a murder rate roughly 4x higher than other western democracies.

To say that’s not related to the proliferation of guns, I think that’s just disingenuous.

ok i looks at big picture, USA is also 20X more airplanes 'than other western democracies' and is so many more Nobel prizes, only 5 for Argentina[:/], so maybe is true more guns means more airplanes and smartest people, si?

Slater
McConkey es Dios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Slater

******... And just in the last couple of weeks there has been a murder/suicide carried out with an ax and another carried out with a chainsaw. And countless other violent acts every day that do not involve a gun . . . Yes, guns are often used in violent attacks, but looking at the big picture,.



Yes, look at the big picture:

Guns are used in 71% of all murders in the USA. Overwhelmingly handguns. All your axes, knives, garottes, poisons, baseball bats, cement overshoes... combined comprise less than half of the number of gun murders.

The USA has a murder rate roughly 4x higher than other western democracies.

To say that’s not related to the proliferation of guns, I think that’s just disingenuous.

ok i looks at big picture, USA is also 20X more airplanes 'than other western democracies' and is so many more Nobel prizes, only 5 for Argentina[:/], so maybe is true more guns means more airplanes and smartest people, si?

Slater

Yes, but to be fair, one does not equal the other. Look at the Nobel that was given not to long ago, proving it is purely political.[:/]
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Slater

******... And just in the last couple of weeks there has been a murder/suicide carried out with an ax and another carried out with a chainsaw. And countless other violent acts every day that do not involve a gun . . . Yes, guns are often used in violent attacks, but looking at the big picture,.



Yes, look at the big picture:

Guns are used in 71% of all murders in the USA. Overwhelmingly handguns. All your axes, knives, garottes, poisons, baseball bats, cement overshoes... combined comprise less than half of the number of gun murders.

The USA has a murder rate roughly 4x higher than other western democracies.

To say that’s not related to the proliferation of guns, I think that’s just disingenuous.

ok i looks at big picture, USA is also 20X more airplanes 'than other western democracies' and is so many more Nobel prizes, only 5 for Argentina[:/], so maybe is true more guns means more airplanes and smartest people, si?

Slater

AND don't forget that Chewbacca is a Wookie!
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kallend

*********... And just in the last couple of weeks there has been a murder/suicide carried out with an ax and another carried out with a chainsaw. And countless other violent acts every day that do not involve a gun . . . Yes, guns are often used in violent attacks, but looking at the big picture,.



Yes, look at the big picture:

Guns are used in 71% of all murders in the USA. Overwhelmingly handguns. All your axes, knives, garottes, poisons, baseball bats, cement overshoes... combined comprise less than half of the number of gun murders.

The USA has a murder rate roughly 4x higher than other western democracies.

To say that’s not related to the proliferation of guns, I think that’s just disingenuous.

ok i looks at big picture, USA is also 20X more airplanes 'than other western democracies' and is so many more Nobel prizes, only 5 for Argentina[:/], so maybe is true more guns means more airplanes and smartest people, si?

Slater

AND don't forget that Chewbacca is a Wookie!

But what is Han Solo?
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
turtlespeed

************... And just in the last couple of weeks there has been a murder/suicide carried out with an ax and another carried out with a chainsaw. And countless other violent acts every day that do not involve a gun . . . Yes, guns are often used in violent attacks, but looking at the big picture,.



Yes, look at the big picture:

Guns are used in 71% of all murders in the USA. Overwhelmingly handguns. All your axes, knives, garottes, poisons, baseball bats, cement overshoes... combined comprise less than half of the number of gun murders.

The USA has a murder rate roughly 4x higher than other western democracies.

To say that’s not related to the proliferation of guns, I think that’s just disingenuous.

ok i looks at big picture, USA is also 20X more airplanes 'than other western democracies' and is so many more Nobel prizes, only 5 for Argentina[:/], so maybe is true more guns means more airplanes and smartest people, si?

Slater

AND don't forget that Chewbacca is a Wookie!



But what is Han Solo?

A compassionate conservatives sex life???:ph34r::ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0