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Indiana law prompts pizzeria to state they will deny catering to gays/lesbians

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Corey, from what little attention I've paid to this story, I'd probably agree with you. It did seem more like the media looking for a story rather than this particular business looking to make a statement.

As for the issue, I think it's really hard to have a law that is fair for everyone. For the most part, I think that private (especially non-necessity-type) businesses should have the right to refuse service to anyone. Unfortunately, I don't see how to allow that without ending up with certain groups of people being heavily discriminated against.

Of course, one of the risks involved when choosing a career or choosing to start a certain kind of business is that things change, and you either need to evolve with the changes or move on. Same-sex marriage is quickly becoming legal throughout our country, and maybe it's time for anyone in a wedding-related business (excluding churches) to realize that they are going to have to provide services without discrimination or get into a different type of business.

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rushmc

***

Quote

Now we need to force Muslim t-shirt makers to print Allah cartoon t-shirts
And Minneapolis needs to force Muslin taxi drivers to allow dogs in their cabs
Kosher Deli owners are to be forces to serve no kosher meals



No, we don't need to do that because again (and again, and again, and again:S) it's about denying service to types of people, not about denying types of service.
no, actually it is about forcing your ideology on others and vice a versa. I don't mean you personally

OK fine, that's a valid viewpoint.

Your examples are still misleading strawmen though.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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a gay or lesbian couple who are photographers are approached by a straight couple whose views are known. They know the straight coupledoes agree with gay marriage. should a gay or lesbian couple be allowed to decline because they don't agree with the couple who only believes in straight marriage or should they be forced by the government to do the photography?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc

as a business or service provider, you have the choice to whom you serve and why. Whether or not I agree with them, or you agree with them, or they agree with me, it's still my choice and should remain my choice and no damn government should push someone else's b******* on everyone else



I'm fine with that on a personal level. One of my best friends fully supports my boyfriend and I's relationship, but we've had lengthy discussions about his hesitation to attend our wedding as it goes against his Catholic faith...

For a business to deny service to any human being is just wrong.

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as a business or service provider, you have the choice to whom you serve and why.

So then I'll put you down for being OK with a business owner saying "no colored folks, no Irish, no Muslims."
:S

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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rushmc

***

Quote

Now we need to force Muslim t-shirt makers to print Allah cartoon t-shirts
And Minneapolis needs to force Muslin taxi drivers to allow dogs in their cabs
Kosher Deli owners are to be forces to serve no kosher meals



No, we don't need to do that because again (and again, and again, and again:S) it's about denying service to types of people, not about denying types of service.
no, actually it is about forcing your ideology on others and vice a versa. I don't mean you personally

Yep, Christians have been doing that for centuries and are still trying.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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wmw999

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as a business or service provider, you have the choice to whom you serve and why.

So then I'll put you down for being OK with a business owner saying "no colored folks, no Irish, no Muslims."
:S

Wendy P.
I guess you can put me down for that if you want to. But you'd be wrong
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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I totally don't think you're prejudiced -- what I'm trying to understand is how you can think that people should be able to deny publicly-available services based on whatever they think is appropriate, and NOT think that prejudice is going to be a driving factor.

Whether you think that denying service to Muslims vs. Christians is prejudice, or black people vs. gay people -- are those completely different, or are they all people?

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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wmw999

I totally don't think you're prejudiced -- what I'm trying to understand is how you can think that people should be able to deny publicly-available services based on whatever they think is appropriate, and NOT think that prejudice is going to be a driving factor.

Whether you think that denying service to Muslims vs. Christians is prejudice, or black people vs. gay people -- are those completely different, or are they all people?

Wendy P.


there's 2 things at play here Wendy. Number one, this is discrimination of someone for some reason. Whether or not others agree with it, the business person or service provider should be free in this country to make that choice. Unless that business is subsidized by government funds, he or she should be able to do whatever they think is right. Now for me, while I don't agree with it, I do fully believe that people who act like that will get figured it out by the market. Anyway I can look at it, I cannot condone government forcing someone to do something they don't agree with no matter how despicable their view
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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JohnnyMarko

***

Whether you think that denying service to Muslims vs. Christians is prejudice, or black people vs. gay people -- are those completely different, or are they all people?



They're completely different, because Jesus.

Only Blonde Blue Eyed Jesus though.

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rushmc

***I totally don't think you're prejudiced -- what I'm trying to understand is how you can think that people should be able to deny publicly-available services based on whatever they think is appropriate, and NOT think that prejudice is going to be a driving factor.

Whether you think that denying service to Muslims vs. Christians is prejudice, or black people vs. gay people -- are those completely different, or are they all people?

Wendy P.


there's 2 things at play here Wendy. Number one, this is discrimination of someone for some reason. Whether or not others agree with it, the business person or service provider should be free in this country to make that choice. Unless that business is subsidized by government funds, he or she should be able to do whatever they think is right. Now for me, while I don't agree with it, I do fully believe that people who act like that will get figured it out by the market. Anyway I can look at it, I cannot condone government forcing someone to do something they don't agree with no matter how despicable their view

+1

If not receiving government funds or business, let people expose themselves for the bigots and racists they are and let the market sort it out. :)
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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rushmc

***I totally don't think you're prejudiced -- what I'm trying to understand is how you can think that people should be able to deny publicly-available services based on whatever they think is appropriate, and NOT think that prejudice is going to be a driving factor.

Whether you think that denying service to Muslims vs. Christians is prejudice, or black people vs. gay people -- are those completely different, or are they all people?

Wendy P.


there's 2 things at play here Wendy. Number one, this is discrimination of someone for some reason. Whether or not others agree with it, the business person or service provider should be free in this country to make that choice. Unless that business is subsidized by government funds, he or she should be able to do whatever they think is right. Now for me, while I don't agree with it, I do fully believe that people who act like that will get figured it out by the market. Anyway I can look at it, I cannot condone government forcing someone to do something they don't agree with no matter how despicable their view

You live under a set of laws in this country... they force most of us to do what they want on a daily basis...

The constitution is supposed to provide equal protection for All Americans.... unless you do not really believe in that and some American are created more equal that others just like yourself and the rest who do not believe or look as you do..... do not really matter anyway.

I think its the latter that you wish to bring to the brave new America run by corporate interests for old very rich white guys.

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wmw999

So then I'll put you down for being OK with a business owner saying "no colored folks, no Irish, no Muslims."



and
"no gays, no whites, no christians" etc etc etc

I know it was to Rush, but IMHO - I'm not OK with them doing that (not being OK is different than wanting a law), and a few decades ago it was so prevalent that laws needed to be in place to keep it from happening.

Today, social pressure is much more evolved. Even if some individuals aren't yet caught up - it's a smaller group that might even now be manageable through market pressure. (this sentence right here is likely the contention that's really up for discussion - are we ready to go it alone, or do we want big brother to do it for us.....)

So if a business were to put up any of those signs. OK..... But then I also hope they are OK that I'll turn right around and actively go their competitors, and hopefully every single one of my friends and everyone I can notify will also follow my lead. And also their employees decide to not work there either. And maybe their suppliers too.


Now, I'd gladly attend a business with a "no CRW dogs. no packers" sign in front. You gotta draw the line somewhere.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Amazon

The constitution is supposed to provide equal protection for All Americans....from the government.



FIFY
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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wmw999

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as a business or service provider, you have the choice to whom you serve and why.

So then I'll put you down for being OK with a business owner saying "no colored folks, no Irish, no Muslims."
:S

Wendy P.


Definitely, not the Irish! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw:D
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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rushmc

as a business or service provider, you have the choice to whom you serve and why. Whether or not I agree with them, or you agree with them, or they agree with me, it's still my choice and should remain my choice and no damn government should push someone else's b******* on everyone else



Sorry, but this is flat-out wrong. Under the law, businesses are considered "places of public accommodation." Discrimination against certain groups, i.e. racial minorities, religious minorities, etc., by places of public accommodation is unlawful. Many states have added sexual orientation to that list.

http://civilrights.findlaw.com/enforcing-your-civil-rights/discrimination-in-public-accommodations.html

It is absolutely not OK for businesses to deny access to certain groups of people. Obviously, folks can pick and choose who they let into their homes. But when you open a place of public accommodation, you cannot discriminate, unless you enjoy being the target of a federal lawsuit.

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So then. Answer the question I asked of Wendy. The one no one has yet answered. And regardless. What you posted is wrong. But saddly that is what is being pushed
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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I think that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If a straight couple that goes to a rigorously conservative church were to want to hire a flamboyantly out-there gay photographer, then the photographer should definitely be just as required to be professional with them.

I would hope that with a good selection of photographers, caterers, and the rest, across the ethnic, gender, and religious spectrum, people would generally choose a contractor that they think would do a good job for them. There are always going to be assholes in the world -- no group is exempt from that.

But then, I think that in the feminism world, women should also be subject to any draft that were to come up.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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rushmc

So then. Answer the question I asked of Wendy. The one no one has yet answered. And regardless. What you posted is wrong. But saddly that is what is being pushed



I don't much care what question you asked Wendy. You asserted "as a business or service provider, you have the choice to whom you serve and why." That assertion is clearly and obviously incorrect, because the law very plainly says that business owners do not have that choice when it comes to things like race, religion, and sexual orientation. I take it you don't like that law, and that you disagree with it. Fine. But you cannot make the obviously false factual statement that business owners are free to refuse service to blacks, Muslims, gays, if the business owner doesn't like that group. As a country, we got past that crap a long time ago. It's not 1950 anymore. Get over it.

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