Shotgun 1 #76 March 12, 2015 kallend******>You have a solution? Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved. From the link you posted, one patient was told she would have to find another doctor when she refused to answer her doctor's question about guns. Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer? AFAIK, a doctor can ask a patient to find another doctor any time for pretty much any reason except prohibited discrimination. The doctor has to continue to provide treatment for another 30 days before termination. Fair enough. If that's the case, then I have to admit there is no problem here. It did say that she was given 30 days to find another doctor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #77 March 12, 2015 Shotgun*********>You have a solution? Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved. From the link you posted, one patient was told she would have to find another doctor when she refused to answer her doctor's question about guns. Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer? AFAIK, a doctor can ask a patient to find another doctor any time for pretty much any reason except prohibited discrimination. The doctor has to continue to provide treatment for another 30 days before termination. Fair enough. If that's the case, then I have to admit there is no problem here. It did say that she was given 30 days to find another doctor. No-one should be forced to work for someone they don't wish to work for, whether the worker is a physician, secretary or construction worker.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #78 March 12, 2015 QuoteSince when does a refrigerator, when used as the product is designed to be used, have a very high likelihood to kill or injure people? Especially likely if operated by a child or angry adult. No idea. I doubt many kids are strong enough to topple a refridgerator, so I'd guess that's not a problem. An angry adult could, but they'd need to make sure the victim was standing right in front of it which could prove difficult. QuoteI have seen some asinine arguments and rationalizations on this board, here, but this one is far more ridiculous than the usual drivel. What am I rationalizing? QuoteA gun, be it a handgun, shotgun, or rifle, is designed to have a very high likelihood to kill that which it is directed against. No rational person could make an argument that a refrigerator has the same lethal potential. Well, I'm glad you're here to set us straight on that! I might never have noticed otherwise. QuoteUtterly ridiculous. This is what passes for rational thinking these days? A refrigerator equated with firearms? Unbelievable! I was unaware a fridge had been equated with a firearm at any point. I thought I was using irony to make a point about the neccessity of general vs specific regulations. Wait a moment though, maybe I misremembered. Nope, that was definitely what I was doing*. I think you should review the advice I gave to Rushmc a little earlier. * Unless I got 'Irony' wrong. I'm like Alanis Morissette there sometimes. (No Alanis, it's not ironic! All those things are just unfortunate, that's all!)Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #79 March 12, 2015 kallend************>You have a solution? Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved. From the link you posted, one patient was told she would have to find another doctor when she refused to answer her doctor's question about guns. Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer? AFAIK, a doctor can ask a patient to find another doctor any time for pretty much any reason except prohibited discrimination. The doctor has to continue to provide treatment for another 30 days before termination. Fair enough. If that's the case, then I have to admit there is no problem here. It did say that she was given 30 days to find another doctor. No-one should be forced to work for someone they don't wish to work for, whether the worker is a physician, secretary or construction worker. Well, I think there would be a problem if the doctor didn't want to treat, for example, a homosexual patient (based only on the fact that the patient is homosexual). Actually, there are probably a lot of scenarios where refusal of treatment is not ethical, even with 30 days notice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #80 March 12, 2015 Shotgun***************>You have a solution? Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved. From the link you posted, one patient was told she would have to find another doctor when she refused to answer her doctor's question about guns. Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer? AFAIK, a doctor can ask a patient to find another doctor any time for pretty much any reason except prohibited discrimination. The doctor has to continue to provide treatment for another 30 days before termination. Fair enough. If that's the case, then I have to admit there is no problem here. It did say that she was given 30 days to find another doctor. No-one should be forced to work for someone they don't wish to work for, whether the worker is a physician, secretary or construction worker. Well, I think there would be a problem if the doctor didn't want to treat, for example, a homosexual patient (based only on the fact that the patient is homosexual). Actually, there are probably a lot of scenarios where refusal of treatment is not ethical, even with 30 days notice. See the words in RED in my previous response.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #81 March 12, 2015 kallend******************>You have a solution? Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved. From the link you posted, one patient was told she would have to find another doctor when she refused to answer her doctor's question about guns. Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer? AFAIK, a doctor can ask a patient to find another doctor any time for pretty much any reason except prohibited discrimination. The doctor has to continue to provide treatment for another 30 days before termination. Fair enough. If that's the case, then I have to admit there is no problem here. It did say that she was given 30 days to find another doctor. No-one should be forced to work for someone they don't wish to work for, whether the worker is a physician, secretary or construction worker. Well, I think there would be a problem if the doctor didn't want to treat, for example, a homosexual patient (based only on the fact that the patient is homosexual). Actually, there are probably a lot of scenarios where refusal of treatment is not ethical, even with 30 days notice. See the words in RED in my previous response. OK. And I guess this Act has also made it illegal for a doctor to refuse treatment to a patient who refuses to answer irrelevant questions about gun ownership. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #82 March 12, 2015 Shotgun*********************>You have a solution? Sure. Let doctors ask. Let patients refuse to answer. Problem solved. From the link you posted, one patient was told she would have to find another doctor when she refused to answer her doctor's question about guns. Do you agree with a doctor being able to refuse treatment if a patient refuses to answer? AFAIK, a doctor can ask a patient to find another doctor any time for pretty much any reason except prohibited discrimination. The doctor has to continue to provide treatment for another 30 days before termination. Fair enough. If that's the case, then I have to admit there is no problem here. It did say that she was given 30 days to find another doctor. No-one should be forced to work for someone they don't wish to work for, whether the worker is a physician, secretary or construction worker. Well, I think there would be a problem if the doctor didn't want to treat, for example, a homosexual patient (based only on the fact that the patient is homosexual). Actually, there are probably a lot of scenarios where refusal of treatment is not ethical, even with 30 days notice. See the words in RED in my previous response. OK. And I guess this Act has also made it illegal for a doctor to refuse treatment to a patient who refuses to answer irrelevant questions about gun ownership. Also relevant questions on the same topic. I don't see a parallelism with illegal discrimination. After all, here we are discussing a GAG order on the doctor.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #83 March 12, 2015 The question was added to all sorts of doctors checklists by political groups and for political reasons. I'm sure that now the MD's have to ask it in order to qualify for insurance reimbursement. Just as there is a whole list of questions they ask my 89 year old mother, many inappropriate, not applicable and offensive to an 89 year old woman to prove they are meeting the standard of care. The legislation to ban the question is political too. One political base challenging another. Neither have true gun safety in mind. There are many things just as dangerous in my house that aren't asked about because knives, rat poison, insecticides, commercial sewing machines, skill saws, bleach, etc aren't part of a political agenda. I teach my kids to respect all of them. Political based questions to not belong in a physical exam. And I don't answer them. Is gun safety important? Sure. Especially with idiots having a loaded hand gun in their purse in front of their toddle. But it is not part of a MEDICAL exam.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #84 March 12, 2015 >Well, I think there would be a problem if the doctor didn't want to treat, for example, a >homosexual patient (based only on the fact that the patient is homosexual. Agreed. However, by the same measure, he should be able to ask if he is sexually active, and if he is, recommend condom usage. (Similarly, the patient should be free to refuse to answer.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #85 March 12, 2015 >There are many things just as dangerous in my house that aren't asked about because knives, >rat poison, insecticides, commercial sewing machines, skill saws, bleach, etc aren't part of a > political agenda. Our pediatrician regularly talks to parents about safety for toddlers - door latches to prevent them getting into cleaning supplies, putting away easily swallowed objects etc. She often asks parents with more than one child whether the family has Legos, because older kids often leave smaller Legos on the floor and the infant swallows them. (And parents sometimes don't think about them because - hey - they're Legos and they are safe.) It would be ironic indeed if she was able to ask about Legos due to the risk they pose to infants - but not about guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #86 March 13, 2015 QuoteLegos... Legos... Legos... Legos I'm pretty sure Lego is like sheep (stay with me) - no matter how many sheep you have, they're not sheeps. Likewise whether you have one piece of Lego or many pieces of Lego, they're all Lego. To be honest though, it's probably not important.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #87 March 13, 2015 billvon>Well, I think there would be a problem if the doctor didn't want to treat, for example, a >homosexual patient (based only on the fact that the patient is homosexual. Agreed. However, by the same measure, he should be able to ask if he is sexually active, and if he is, recommend condom usage. (Similarly, the patient should be free to refuse to answer.) Do you think that the patient's refusal to answer the question should be a legitimate reason for the doctor to give him 30 days notice to have to find a new doctor? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #88 March 13, 2015 Actually...it was moi who asked "You have a solution?" Look at all the shit I started! WOO HOO! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #89 March 13, 2015 +1 billvon, please take note! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #90 March 13, 2015 I'm a little surprised that it seems like most people's relationship with their doctor is one of mistrust and wariness. My regular doctor retired recently, but when I saw him he asked about all sorts of things not on the form. He never asked about guns, but he'd ask how my private life was, stress at work, etc. I never felt the need to try to get him thrown in jail. If the doctor can't ask any questions not on the patient intake form, why bother going to the doctor? Just go to WebMD and no one will be offended. Specific to the suicide question, I'd be pissed if a loved one expressed suicidal thoughts to their doctor, and the doctor didn't follow up on it. Asking about guns in the house seems like a reasonable question inthat case. If we get to the point that doctors are banned from personal interaction with their patients, then the medical system is totally broken. I guess I don't get as worked up over gun issues as most people. I'm also not an idealogue pandering to my rabid base like 90% of politicians, so I find it hard to manufacture rage about gun issues, too. Finally, I'd like to point out the types of politicians bloviating about the government getting between you and your doctor, are the same people supporting laws like this. Ironic, don't you think? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 173 #91 March 13, 2015 It's pretty simple. Doctors ask about all sorts of household things, such as smoking in the house, foods eaten, amount of TV watched, exercise, etc. The questionnaire is usually tailored to the child's age. Damn those doctors trying to keep their little patients safe by asking parents about guns and providing some gun safety tips. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #92 March 13, 2015 Interesting. I've always thought of them as Legos. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #93 March 13, 2015 billvonDiscussing gun safety with a parent who does not own guns seems like a waste of time. I strongly disagree. Similarly, it is not a waste of time to discuss child firearm safety with a firearm owner that has no children. There's actually a short chapter in the California FSC Study Guide (side note: I like how the pdf is still titled "hscsg.pdf", but that's another topic) about firearms and children. As I said before, I think something like that would be useful to all parents of young children, and would probably be about the level of detail appropriate if it were coming from a doctor. It would be absurd for a doctor to ask, "So, do you have a pool or stairs? No? Well then, I won't waste the 45 seconds it would take me to talk about safety recommendations around pools and stairs then." I think the best way to respond to a doctor if he or she asks you if you have guns in the house is by saying, "I'm interested in what you have to say if my answer was 'yes'." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #94 March 13, 2015 From the American Academy of Pediatrics: QuoteAAP Policy In 2012, the Academy reaffirmed its commitment to advocating for the strongest possible firearm regulations. The absence of guns in homes and communities is the most reliable and effective measure to prevent firearm-related injuries in children and adolescents. The AAP supports a number of specific measures to reduce the destructive effects of guns in the lives of children and adolescents, including the regulation of the manufacture, sale, purchase, ownership, and use of firearms; a ban assault weapons; and expanded regulations of handguns for civilian use. To prevent gun-related death and injuries, the AAP recommends that pediatricians provide firearm safety counseling to patients and their parents. I think this sheds some light on part of the problem. It's more than just a simple/innocent question from physicians intended to protect children. Well, maybe that is the individual physician's intent. But when these medical associations are getting into gun politics - making statements about the "absence of guns in homes and communities" being the best way to protect children and then recommending that pediatricians provide counseling with this in mind - it's bound to turn into an issue. https://www.aap.org/en-us/advocacy-and-policy/state-advocacy/Documents/firearms_slr.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #95 March 13, 2015 normiss Interesting. I've always thought of them as Legos. I think it's "Legos" for most of us American heathens. But then we were never known for our proper use of the English language. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #96 March 13, 2015 >Do you think that the patient's refusal to answer the question should be a >legitimate reason for the doctor to give him 30 days notice to have to find a >new doctor? In that case, I'd say no. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #97 March 13, 2015 BIGUN"Where does it hurt"? "When did you first notice the lump?" "Is it just on the left side or on both sides?" "Have you been vaccinated?" "Is there a family history of heart disease?" "Does your mommy or daddy have any whips or handcuffs in the house?" "How many bottles of alcohol do your parents keep in the house?" "Does mommy or daddy smoke marijuana?" "Have you seen your parents speeding?" "Do you have any guns in the house?" do your parents light a menorah? do you celebrate Passover? did you have a bar mitzvah? do your parents have any jewish friends?If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #98 March 13, 2015 rushmc***QuoteGuns have special status of being protected by the Constitution. Whether you agree with that or not is a separate question. The right to free speech doesn't mean a cop can stop you and ask you questions because there is a 4th amendment. I think you're wrong, you're looking at it in the wrong way and that's why there's a disagreement. A cop can ask you questions about pretty much anything, he needs cause to hold you and compell an answer. That's where I think you guys are getting fuzzy, the difference between asking and demanding. Wrong You are not required to answer ANY question other than your name A cop can not compell you to answer any other questions That said He sure as hell will try to get an answer and if you say 'that's none of your business', he will probably write in his notes that altho you deny it, he assumes you do, and that you have an attitudeIf some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #99 March 13, 2015 >Similarly, it is not a waste of time to discuss child firearm safety with a firearm >owner that has no children. That's fine. I have found that most doctors concentrate on the problems presented rather than general background. i.e. a smoker might get some advice on quitting, whereas someone who does not smoke tends not to get advice on quitting. (Even though they might start some time in the future.) However, if the doctor and patient have time, no problem covering gun safety, pool safety, car safety, pedestrian safety, quitting smoking, managing/treating narcotics addictions, treatment of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, window safety, ladder safety, Lego safety etc etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #100 March 13, 2015 Quoteand if you say 'that's none of your business', he will probably write in his notes that altho you deny it, he assumes you do, and that you have an attitude Hes been triggered! NURSE, get the sedative, and call the ATF STAT!!! Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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