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ryoder

U of OK fraternity: "So tonight we're gonna party like it's 1959"

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Driver1

***From all indications, it appears to be a frat-house-wide problem.



why? pick one

1 - because when it first started they protected the individuals as a means to protect the social structure and it got out of control? (not holding individuals responsible)

2 - because the social structure itself lends to this type of behavior (social structure drives behavior)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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1 - find the individuals involved and deal with them only and don't take those not involved down with them (people are responsible/accountable for their own actions)



I should say that I don't really know how important fraternities are in US college culture but it should be noted that the uninvolve individuals haven't been taken down in any fashion - they've not been sanctioned, suspended, expelled or faced any other action against them* except having a social club closed down.

Not dismissing your point, just looking for a little context.

* That I've seen.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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I don't see how one defends those actions

One doesn't. One defends the right to do amazingly stupid stuff, and then suffer the consequences thereof. Personally, I find what the fraternity members did to be utterly offensive, and the vast majority of the response to be utterly appropriate. I just hope that everyone around knows who those boys are, so they can be ostracized.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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they've not been sanctioned, suspended, expelled or faced any other action against them*



As of now, two of the song ringleaders have been expelled. More to come... OU does not want the Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division civil rights attorney to hit them too hard since they receive Title IV federal funding which is tied to a non-discrimination policy.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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I just hope that everyone around knows who those boys are, so they can be ostracized.



In Texas, does that mean have the, "sheeit kicked outta you?" ;)
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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BIGUN

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I just hope that everyone around knows who those boys are, so they can be ostracized.



In Texas, does that mean have the, "sheeit kicked outta you?" ;)


Or dragged behind a truck. See how they like that shit. ;)
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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wmw999

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I don't see how one defends those actions

One doesn't. One defends the right to do amazingly stupid stuff, and then suffer the consequences thereof. Personally, I find what the fraternity members did to be utterly offensive, and the vast majority of the response to be utterly appropriate. I just hope that everyone around knows who those boys are, so they can be ostracized.

Wendy P.



Ostracized? Remember that this is Oklahoma, the state trying to ban the AP History test because it covers such negatives as slavery and Jim Crow.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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lawrocket

****** Look at what kallend calls me frequently (not that I disagree with him at all!)




Whatever you say, Counselor.

There you go again with the insult...

Do you prefer "My Learned Friend"?
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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jakee

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1 - find the individuals involved and deal with them only and don't take those not involved down with them (people are responsible/accountable for their own actions)



I should say that I don't really know how important fraternities are in US college culture but it should be noted that the uninvolve individuals haven't been taken down in any fashion - they've not been sanctioned, suspended, expelled or faced any other action against them* except having a social club closed down.

Not dismissing your point, just looking for a little context.

* That I've seen.


I 'believe' the greek system is waning in importance, either that, or I just care about them and don't pay attention.

I'm not sure what individual take down is legally (or officially) appropriate other than people can now realize they are jerks....hard to legislate thought and speech and I'm not sure if society should try, no matter how offensive someone acts.

But I would have no issue with posting pictures of the individuals on campus noting "Hey, these are THOSE guys". The upside to public calling out is they'll be exceptionally uncomfortable due to the reaction of people around them (wendy's point) The downside (fear), is other asswipes thinking they can physically be some kind of vigilantes about it....(and then I see two posts about 'shit kickin' and 'dragged behind a truck' :|)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Anvilbrother

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In this country there is no right to speak fighting words—those words without social value, directed to a specific individual, that would provoke a reasonable member of the group about whom the words are spoken.



Yes there is.

***For example, a person cannot utter a racial or ethnic epithet to another if those words are likely to cause the listener to react violently.

If I called you a nigger and you reacted violently. I broke no laws, and you committed battery.

Don't misunderstand any of this as my defense for the use of the word nigger, racism, or those kids true feelings.

Since UO is a public university (where the institution generally may not abridge constitutional rights, including (but not limited to) the First Amendment), and not a private one (where the institution is permitted greater leeway to abridge constitutional rights in many instances),
civil libertarians might support your point of view:

TIME article: Civil Libertarians Say Expelling Oklahoma Frat Students May Be Illegal

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Andy9o8

***

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In this country there is no right to speak fighting words—those words without social value, directed to a specific individual, that would provoke a reasonable member of the group about whom the words are spoken.



Yes there is.

***For example, a person cannot utter a racial or ethnic epithet to another if those words are likely to cause the listener to react violently.

If I called you a nigger and you reacted violently. I broke no laws, and you committed battery.

Don't misunderstand any of this as my defense for the use of the word nigger, racism, or those kids true feelings.

Since UO is a public university (where the institution generally may not abridge constitutional rights, including (but not limited to) the First Amendment), and not a private one (where the institution is permitted greater leeway to abridge constitutional rights in many instances),
civil libertarians might support your point of view:

TIME article: Civil Libertarians Say Expelling Oklahoma Frat Students May Be Illegal

Don't all universities have a student code of conduct? Why don't we see what UO's code of conduct says is grounds for expulsion?
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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SkyDekker

I like how in the same thread we are protecting people's right to sing about hanging niggers, but have to be carefull not to use free speech to publicly out them too much cause somebody might want to beat them up.



some very crappy irony for sure - just shows we have a lot of variety in the types of crappy people that exist

however, if we just out them publicly, then we get an extra bonus - we can also identify and arrest violent vigilantes as a result....thus dealing with two groups at once.

New program - Bigots as Bait
TM

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Don't all universities have a student code of conduct? Why don't we see what UO's code of conduct says is grounds for expulsion?



A reasonable point, but on balance, at the end of the day, it might not make a difference; and again, it's because OU is a public university, not a private one. That means that if codes of conduct, etc. a public institution sets are in conflict with constitutional rights, the code of conduct is trumped and the constitutional rights prevail.

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BIGUN

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they've not been sanctioned, suspended, expelled or faced any other action against them*



As of now, two of the song ringleaders have been expelled. More to come... OU does not want the Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division civil rights attorney to hit them too hard since they receive Title IV federal funding which is tied to a non-discrimination policy.


The Rev Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are soon to be shaking down the University for protection money. The OU will be in their pockets...it's only a matter of time.:P

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jakee

I should say that I don't really know how important fraternities are in US college culture but it should be noted that the uninvolve individuals haven't been taken down in any fashion - they've not been sanctioned, suspended, expelled or faced any other action against them* except having a social club closed down.



Hmmm...is this a fraternity house where students lived or simply a social club for male students who lived elsewhere?

If it is the former--students actually lived there--then I have a big problem with the university's actions when it came to closing the frat. I agree with expelling those who are known to be responsible but unless you know for sure that ALL members were involved it seems wrong to evict students, some of whom may not have been guilty, from their homes on what I understand was very, very little notice.

Basically I agree with expelling the guilty but not with evicting the not guilty.

If it was just a social club and no one actually lived there it is not such a big deal to close it down.
"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

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>If it is the former--students actually lived there--then I have a big problem
>with the university's actions when it came to closing the frat.

From the article, it looks like it was the fraternity organization that closed the chapter at that school down.

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billvon

>If it is the former--students actually lived there--then I have a big problem
>with the university's actions when it came to closing the frat.

From the article, it looks like it was the fraternity organization that closed the chapter at that school down.



Well it was closed on two fronts. The national fraternity organization cut its ties to that chapter, and the school forced the fraternity out of the house.
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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wmw999

I just hope that everyone around knows who those boys are, so they can be ostracized.



Ya, not bad revenge...might work in a churchy disciplinary sorta way.

...but then by doing so, we might perhaps create another trench coat mafia.

I much rather befriend the immature and influence the men become...
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

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Driver1

***>If it is the former--students actually lived there--then I have a big problem
>with the university's actions when it came to closing the frat.

From the article, it looks like it was the fraternity organization that closed the chapter at that school down.



Well it was closed on two fronts. The national fraternity organization cut its ties to that chapter, and the school forced the fraternity out of the house.

Usually when a fraternity loses its charter, they would have to move out of the house as that is the condition that they are on campus. A fraternity without a charter is just a collection of guys living in a place that another fraternity waiting in line should get.
_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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