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ryoder

U of OK fraternity: "So tonight we're gonna party like it's 1959"

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ryoder

And I thought my opinion of frats couldn't get any lower.:S

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/09/us/oklahoma-fraternity-chant/


I saw that. I about threw up.[:/]
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Anvilbrother

Free speech. The university can do what they want, as well as SAE, but in the end people should be allowed to say what they want even if it hurts someones feelings.



Free speech means speaking responsibly. If this does not disgust you on some level... then I guess you have no problem calling those who've lost their limbs serving in the military, "Gimp" or "Cripple." The fact that you want to hide behind the first amendment and defend the use of racial epithets disgusts me about you on some level.

For everyone else... when it comes to the SAE; I'll ask that you not look at it as an Oklahoma issue, but an SAE leadership issue. Around the country it has been the most expelled Greek fraternity of any.

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Sigma Alpha Epsilon has had nine deaths linked to drinking, drugs and hazing since 2006, more than any other Greek organization, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.[4] More than 100 chapters have been disciplined since 2007, with at least fifteen suspended or closed since 2010. A potential initiate to the SAE chapter at Salisbury University in Maryland alleged that he was beaten with a paddle, forced to drink alcohol to the point of losing consciousness and confined in a basement for nine hours without access to food, water or a bathroom while being subjected to music torture, an experience described as being "almost like Guantanamo Bay". The allegations were verified by a university investigation that led to the suspension of the chapter on the grounds that it had violated Salisbury policies on alcohol, hazing, and threats or acts of violence.[4]

As a result of these incidents, student members pay among the highest rates for liability insurance of any fraternity.[4] In March 2014 JPMorgan Chase stopped managing an investment account of SAE's charitable foundation, with bad publicity from hazing as the likely cause.[10]
...

Suspensions and chapter closing

The founding chapter at the University of Alabama was suspended in 1988 on cocaine-trafficking charges and for violating the university's code against drug use and trafficking.[12] The suspension was lifted in 1990, but with a checklist of improvement goals that the chapter was required to fulfill; in 1992, the chapter was suspended again for failing to meet the outlined goals.[13]

The SAE chapter at the University of Oklahoma was closed in March 2015 after a video surfaced showing members singing racial epithets (see "Racist chanting incident").

In October 2014, the University of Southern California chapter for reportedly "violating members' health and safety".[14]

In January 2015, a victim was hospitalized following allegations of sexual assault at a party at a SAE Iowa State University party. The incident is under investigation by police and the chapter suspended the member suspected of the assault.[14]

The Yale University chapter faces a ban against use of the university email and bulletin board system as well as association of the fraternity name and the university following "inappropriate comments" made by SAE members.[14]

In 2014, a rape allegedly took place at an SAE party at Loyola Marymount University, the national organization reacted by closing the chapter.[15]

In December 2014, Stanford University announced a two-year suspension of SAE housing due to reports of sexual harassment. [16]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_Alpha_Epsilon


Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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Free speech means speaking responsibly. If this does not disgust you on some level... then I guess you have no problem calling those who've lost their limbs serving in the military, "Gimp" or "Cripple." The fact that you want to hide behind the first amendment and defend the use of racial epithets disgusts me about you on some level.



No you have my opinion on their message and free speech totally wrong. You have the right to say what is on your mind no matter the topic or outcome and thats fucking awesome! Things such as your friends, school, work, news media have all the right in the U.S. to do what they want with that, and it includes breaking up, getting kicked out, fired, or blasted on tv like these guys.

I do not agree with the message one bit, nor does it disgust me. I think the same of the annual female PETA girls who come to Baton Rouge, get naked on the street corner, and yell something about dont eat meat, or the transvestite cop on Bourbon street in New Orleans that directs traffic in a bra and panties. I laugh at all of these people, but love the fact that we have that right.

I simply respect the right for people to say whatever they want while we still can BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE FIGHTING MEN of the military and our ancestors. Im not sure why they hell you included the gimp name calling part.

Also no one is HIDING from anything, I am just reminding people, and STANDING for the right to say whatever stupid shit anyone wants to say regardless if it hurts someones feelings.

Free speech does not mean only speaking responsibly. Although those that do will actually get taken seriously.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

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So for all those words; you still landed up right here...
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for the right to say whatever stupid shit anyone wants to say regardless if it hurts someones feelings.


Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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I guess you have no problem calling those who've lost their limbs serving in the military, "Gimp" or "Cripple."



I'm in trouble, then. THere's a fellow jumper who lost a leg in the war that I rag on all the time. I call a certain deaf fooker a deaf fooker. I'm called a white pasty ass who needs some sun. Look at what kallend calls me frequently (not that I disagree with him at all!)


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The fact that you want to hide behind the first amendment and defend the use of racial epithets disgusts me about you on some level.



Um, the First Amendment was meant for offensive speakers to hide behind. It wasn't meant to protect popular speech which needs no protection.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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I'm not talking about friend bantering between two people. Like everyone, I have some brothers that I call "X" and they call me "Y." Those around us who hear it - take it for what it is.

Do you defend that standing on a bus singing, "Hang a n****** by the tree" while there is an african-american on the bus is acceptable? Regardless of how that person feels?
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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So for all those words; you still landed up right here...
for the right to say whatever stupid shit anyone wants to say regardless if it hurts someones feelings.



So are you saying we should enact laws that stop people from saying things that hurts someones feelings?

We don't need laws for hurting someones feelings only. There is a system for punishment, and thats what society does, and in this case it is working perfectly. They are suspended from University, frat kicked off campus, frat looking internally, and the boys are being put on blast in the media. That's how the system works if all your doing is stating words, and not committing assault, libel, etc.

Am I guessing correctly that you would be for bullying laws that legally punish people from calling someone a name on facebook? Where does that stop, commit a verbal PA on dz.com, and billvon is legally required to call the cops?

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

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BIGUN



Do you defend that standing on a bus singing, "Hang a n****** by the tree" while there is an african-american on the bus is acceptable? Regardless of how that person feels?



I defend the right to do it. It shouldn't be prevented. It should be publicized. Think of it. If the word nigger was banned, people wouldn't say it. We then lose the opportunity to find out who the bigots are.

We know now. And I'm glad that the right came with the responsibility to face the consequences.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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Hate speech is, outside the law, speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as gender, ethnic origin, religion, race, disability, or sexual orientation. In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group.

When a conflict arises about which is more important—protecting community interests or safeguarding the rights of the individual—a balance must be found that protects the civil rights of all without limiting the civil liberties of the speaker.

In this country there is no right to speak fighting words—those words without social value, directed to a specific individual, that would provoke a reasonable member of the group about whom the words are spoken. For example, a person cannot utter a racial or ethnic epithet to another if those words are likely to cause the listener to react violently. However, under the First Amendment, individuals do have a right to speech that the listener disagrees with and to speech that is offensive and hateful.

Think about it. It’s always easier to defend someone’s right to say something with which you agree. But in a free society, you also have a duty to defend speech to which you may strongly object.

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/initiatives_awards/students_in_action/debate_hate.html
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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In this country there is no right to speak fighting words—those words without social value, directed to a specific individual, that would provoke a reasonable member of the group about whom the words are spoken.



Yes there is.

Quote

For example, a person cannot utter a racial or ethnic epithet to another if those words are likely to cause the listener to react violently.

If I called you a nigger and you reacted violently. I broke no laws, and you committed battery.

Don't misunderstand any of this as my defense for the use of the word nigger, racism, or those kids true feelings.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

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BIGUN

words are likely to cause the listener to react violently



I would posit that in a world of adults, there should be no such thing as "fighting words"

other than a direct threat of physical harm to a person or others, I don't see any position that would justify violent physical attack based on words alone.

unless the attacker is, like, 12 years old?

even 12 year olds understand the logic of the 'sticks and stones' philosophy

of course there are exceptions - https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEVjKcLP9U.9gAOzEnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0dmRibmhwBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMV8x?p=words+do+hurt+commercial&tnr=21&vid=0DED208D0096948226380DED208D009694822638&l=31&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608028655051279825%26pid%3D15.1&sigi=11ro2k82a&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkCysb4_-4jU&sigr=11bqchbft&tt=b&tit=Words+Can+Hurt%3A+Did+You+Know+--+GEICO&sigt=1155fq8mf&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dwords%2Bdo%2Bhurt%2Bcommercial%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=134n0bvab&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001


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It’s always easier to defend someone’s right to say something with which you agree. But in a free society, you also have a duty to defend speech to which you may strongly object.



good statement and restatement of many throughout our history

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Andy9o8

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standing on a bus singing, "Hang a n****** by the tree" while there is an african-american on the bus is acceptable?



I would call that "suicide", but hey, that's me.



SO many wrongs on so many levels. I just don't know how one defends those actions. Truly a failure in leadership. I get defending the first amendment, but not in defending those... not words, but actions.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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Having not been through the American schooling system and having my only exposure to frats being from Hollywood I appreciate my viewpoint may be slightly skewed, but are frats purely just a way to be a dick?
Never try to eat more than you can lift

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Stumpy

Having not been through the American schooling system and having my only exposure to frats being from Hollywood I appreciate my viewpoint may be slightly skewed, but are frats purely just a way to be a dick?



Put it this way: it's like skydivers at the bonfire after a day's jumping at the DZ, but without the jumping, and it's every day for 4 years.

So, yes.

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Pretty much, but think of it like this, what if that frat had 50 members in that house, and this was a video of 5 of them, does that make all 50 racists? What if the other 45 just got shafted out of a great way to to get through college, and make business contacts later on because of the university admin just saying fuck ALL of them and banning the entire frat instead of only the ones being offensive.

I don't have all the details but unless it was all of them it seems a bit far to just nuke the entire organization off campus. If 5 football players were caught doing this, you gonna ban the football program from the university too?

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

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Anvilbrother

Pretty much, but think of it like this, what if that frat had 50 members in that house, and this was a video of 5 of them, does that make all 50 racists? What if the other 45 just got shafted out of a great way to to get through college, and make business contacts later on because of the university admin just saying fuck ALL of them and banning the entire frat instead of only the ones being offensive.

I don't have all the details but unless it was all of them it seems a bit far to just nuke the entire organization off campus.



Good analogy. I'm sure there were some perfectly honorable Japanese in Hiroshima in early August 1945.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Anvilbrother

Pretty much, but think of it like this, what if that frat had 50 members in that house, and this was a video of 5 of them, does that make all 50 racists? What if the other 45 just got shafted out of a great way to to get through college, and make business contacts later on because of the university admin just saying fuck ALL of them and banning the entire frat instead of only the ones being offensive.

I don't have all the details but unless it was all of them it seems a bit far to just nuke the entire organization off campus. If 5 football players were caught doing this, you gonna ban the football program from the university too?



As a matter of fact, the university has expelled 2 students that they identified as being the leaders, and are in the process of identifying others for appropriate punishment. I don't have a problem with shutting down the fraternity and evicting all occupants. Those not expelled are free to find other places to live and go to class.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/national/2-university-of-oklahoma-students-expelled-over-racist-video/ar-AA9A7T3

This action is really about setting an example of what is not tolerated, at all.
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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Driver1

***Pretty much, but think of it like this, what if that frat had 50 members in that house, and this was a video of 5 of them, does that make all 50 racists? What if the other 45 just got shafted out of a great way to to get through college, and make business contacts later on because of the university admin just saying fuck ALL of them and banning the entire frat instead of only the ones being offensive.

I don't have all the details but unless it was all of them it seems a bit far to just nuke the entire organization off campus. If 5 football players were caught doing this, you gonna ban the football program from the university too?



As a matter of fact, the university has expelled 2 students that they identified as being the leaders, and are in the process of identifying others for appropriate punishment. I don't have a problem with shutting down the fraternity and evicting all occupants. Those not expelled are free to find other places to live and go to class.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/national/2-university-of-oklahoma-students-expelled-over-racist-video/ar-AA9A7T3

This action is really about setting an example of what is not tolerated, at all.

Yep - this. This shit NEEDS to be zero tolerance. If organisations know they can be shut down for it they are much more likely to police themselves more adequately.
Never try to eat more than you can lift

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Stumpy

Yep - this. This shit NEEDS to be zero tolerance. If organisations know they can be shut down for it they are much more likely to police themselves more adequately.



the philosophies are so different:

1 - find the individuals involved and deal with them only and don't take those not involved down with them (people are responsible/accountable for their own actions)

2 - go ahead and take down their social structure as an example to other social structures so they structure their culture differently (society is responsible/accountable for the actions of their members)

it's truly two very legitimate viewpoints with the emphases that are 180 degrees from each other. And advocates of each will argue fanatically that the other one is completely unfair and unreasonable vs their own.

I guess pick a side and rant away

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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rehmwa

***Yep - this. This shit NEEDS to be zero tolerance. If organisations know they can be shut down for it they are much more likely to police themselves more adequately.



the philosophies are so different:

1 - find the individuals involved and deal with them only and don't take those not involved down with them (people are responsible/accountable for their own actions)

2 - go ahead and take down their social structure as an example to other social structures so they structure their culture differently (society is responsible/accountable for the actions of their members)

it's truly two very legitimate viewpoints with the emphases that are 180 degrees from each other. And advocates of each will argue fanatically that the other one is completely unfair and unreasonable vs their own.

I guess pick a side and rant away

From all indications, it appears to be a frat-house-wide problem.

Anybody remember the FAMU marching band scandal? The school disbanded the band for what, 2 years or something? They had a bad hazing thing going on.
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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