billvon 2,723 #51 December 11, 2014 >My OP was present centered and you responded with reference to 1920 and 1960. That is exactly my point. You are saying "we should keep things like they are." People have been saying that for 200 years with the same justifications you are using. Fortunately we did not keep them the same and we are all the better for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #52 December 11, 2014 RonD1120If if didn't/doesn't work, why did/do we use it? When lives are at stake, why should we be polite? What is a polite war? Do the survivors/relatives of those killed on 9/11 have tortured memories? We waterboard They behead"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #53 December 11, 2014 QuoteIf if didn't/doesn't work, why did/do we use it? I'm not going to take sides in this particular argument, but I can tell you that as a matter of logic, that is weak. Can anyone think of an example of something people continue to use even though it doesn't work?You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,546 #54 December 11, 2014 BerttQuoteIf if didn't/doesn't work, why did/do we use it? I'm not going to take sides in this particular argument, but I can tell you that as a matter of logic, that is weak. Can anyone think of an example of something people continue to use even though it doesn't work? Polygraph is a good example of something many government agencies cling to."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpohl 1 #55 December 11, 2014 How about: It's the law? Torturing has basically violated countless US laws, plus all international laws to which the US has been a signatory. Plus, the CIA has misled Congress and oversight committees. I have absolutely no more qualms about the next American being beheaded. Just as most of those being tortured were innocent, I am sure those Americans being beheaded are innocent, too. Wrong place, wrong time. I just wish somebody would get to Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney by any means, before they get a chance to naturally expire. P.S.: No way that a misguided nation of 300M people will rule the other 6B. I am thankful for China and Russia as a counterweight. RonD1120If if didn't/doesn't work, why did/do we use it? When lives are at stake, why should we be polite? What is a polite war? Do the survivors/relatives of those killed on 9/11 have tortured memories? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #56 December 11, 2014 Fact 1 No CIA agents (or anyone)were interviewed for this "report" Fact 2 The DOJ has declined to prosecute anyone (why?) IMO this is because the report is political and any court proceedings would show the politics of this report For the record Those who say they (now) like McCain again support the very reason he had NO CHANCE as a Republican canidate for President I will not come back to this thread I promise"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpohl 1 #57 December 11, 2014 Right on, bro'! Like your sig line! NSA and CIA come to mind. NRA also. But we think alike, so I don't have to tell you. rushmc"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Backintothesky 0 #58 December 11, 2014 Do you see how this logic ends up in a never ending cycle of increasing violence? It's PART of the reason why Israel and Palastine will never resolve their issues. It's why in thousands of year SOME members of the black community will continue to justify their criminal actions because of slavery. RonD1120Did you read the report? I did not. Does it state that we did all those things? John McCain was tortured. The North Vietnamese had a justified reason for doing it. We used enhanced interrogation following 9/11. We were justified in doing so. I am a hard liner, you know that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Backintothesky 0 #59 December 11, 2014 If it works then surely the police should be allowed to use waterboarding and rectal feeding to interrogate suspects? Where is the line? If you say "terrorists" then define terrorists because meanings can be changed. When I was in America earlier this year the media had a habit of calling all violent or disturbing acts "terroristic" even though a lot of them were criminal acts and not acts of "terror". It could get to the point where any criminal act that causes people to be "scared" will be a "terror" act and the suspects will be tortured... I'm not accusing or beating your point of view down here - I'd genuinely like to hear your viewpoint on this and your opinions. RonD1120If if didn't/doesn't work, why did/do we use it? When lives are at stake, why should we be polite? What is a polite war? Do the survivors/relatives of those killed on 9/11 have tortured memories? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #60 December 11, 2014 Posting in the SC expecting to create change.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #61 December 11, 2014 RonD1120If if didn't/doesn't work, why did/do we use it? When lives are at stake, why should we be polite? What is a polite war? Ah. So it doesnwork. And now you say we shouldn't orry about being polite. Here's the thing: give me three minutes and I can have you swearing that it as you on the grassy knoll and provide all kinds of corroborating evidence within five minutes. I'll have you tell me where Jimmy Hoffa is. You will tell me. And finally, you will answer "yes" when I ask you whether you were Barney Frank's lover. And you will answer yes. On video. At that point we will have much useful information. How reliable would it be? [Quote]Do the survivors/relatives of those killed on 9/11 have tortured memories? Yep. So there's the reason: some of them caused grief and suffering because they are bastards. So cause all of them grief and suffering because we are better. Pass the tylenol... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cgriff 0 #62 December 11, 2014 BerttI'm not going to take sides in this particular argument, but I can tell you that as a matter of logic, that is weak. Can anyone think of an example of something people continue to use even though it doesn't work? Voting Republican and Democrat Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #63 December 11, 2014 okalb ***And thirdly, water boarding and sleep deprivation IMO is not torture. What is it then? A method to encourage an individual to talk...give up the goods that can be confirmed by other operatives that in fact what the individual(s) are giving up is true. From many sources, its was very successful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #64 December 11, 2014 QuoteA method to encourage an individual to talk...give up the goods that can be confirmed by other operatives that in fact what the individual(s) are giving up is true. From many sources, its was very successful. So is cutting off finger toes and noses. So is burning sensitive areas. So is the rack. Does that make those methods not torture? BTW, professional interrogators know that torture does not produce the best intel. It produces intel, but not as good as other humane methods. So it's morally wrong, illegal, and less effective than legal and moral methods. Why do it at all? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cengland 0 #65 December 11, 2014 DanGQuote So it's morally wrong, illegal, and less effective than legal and moral methods. Why do it at all? It creates the illusion to the public that the government is addressing their fears of terrorism and justifies the $$$ spent since 9/11 on the war on terror. It doesn't have to be effective but at least they're doing something. IMO torture does more harm than good in the bigger overall picture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 201 #66 December 11, 2014 DanGQuoteA method to encourage an individual to talk...give up the goods that can be confirmed by other operatives that in fact what the individual(s) are giving up is true. From many sources, its was very successful. So is cutting off finger toes and noses. So is burning sensitive areas. So is the rack. Does that make those methods not torture? BTW, professional interrogators know that torture does not produce the best intel. It produces intel, but not as good as other humane methods. So it's morally wrong, illegal, and less effective than legal and moral methods. Why do it at all? But drones are OK?Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Channman 2 #67 December 11, 2014 grue***I'm sorry, I remember how I felt and reacted to 9/11. I do not have sympathy for terrorists. Do you have sympathy for people who view the US's actions overseas as terroristic, who have lost their loved ones to unprovoked attacks on civilians? That would be a good question to ask your beloved Obama...who has used drones to kill and in fact those drones have killed hundreds of innocent women and children. Can't recall, interrogation methods killing innocent women and children. Many here on DZ.COM have a moral dilemma. War is too important to be left to the posters on this blog..., they have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow liberal infiltration, liberal indoctrination, liberal subversion and the international liberal conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious liberties we have fought and died for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,546 #68 December 11, 2014 lawrocket Here's the thing: give me three minutes and I can have you swearing that it as you on the grassy knoll and provide all kinds of corroborating evidence within five minutes. I'll have you tell me where Jimmy Hoffa is. You will tell me. And finally, you will answer "yes" when I ask you whether you were Barney Frank's lover. And you will answer yes. On video. This sounds familiar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoqmH49VBC0&t=1m47s"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #69 December 11, 2014 QuoteBut drones are OK? Drones, like guns, are an inanimate tool. They can be okay, it depends on how they are used. It's the action of using a tool that can be moral or immoral. The tool itself doesn't have morality. Torture is an action. It is never okay. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #70 December 11, 2014 QuoteWar is too important to be left to the posters on this blog..., they have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow liberal infiltration, liberal indoctrination, liberal subversion and the international liberal conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious liberties we have fought and died for. Don't you mean precious bodily fluids? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Channman 2 #71 December 11, 2014 DanG Quote War is too important to be left to the posters on this blog..., they have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow liberal infiltration, liberal indoctrination, liberal subversion and the international liberal conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious liberties we have fought and died for. Don't you mean precious bodily fluids? YEA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites okalb 96 #72 December 11, 2014 Channman ******And thirdly, water boarding and sleep deprivation IMO is not torture. What is it then? A method to encourage an individual to talk...give up the goods that can be confirmed by other operatives that in fact what the individual(s) are giving up is true. From many sources, its was very successful.The best thing that I can say about this response is that luckily most of the people with attitudes like this are old and dying off. Can't happen soon enough.Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,546 #73 December 11, 2014 Quote If if didn't/doesn't work, why did/do we use it? An ex-CIA officer explains why: http://time.com/3627834/torture-report-cia-contractors/"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,723 #74 December 11, 2014 >But drones are OK? For surveillance? Sure. To do exactly the same thing that military aircraft do? Well, if F-14's were OK then drones are OK. For torture? No. If you can't tell the difference between drones and torture - well, we can be glad you are spending your time posting here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,340 #75 December 11, 2014 RonD1120If if didn't/doesn't work, why did/do we use it? Because it feels like it should work. QuoteDo the survivors/relatives of those killed on 9/11 have tortured memories? I'm afraid that's irrelevant.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 3 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
airdvr 201 #66 December 11, 2014 DanGQuoteA method to encourage an individual to talk...give up the goods that can be confirmed by other operatives that in fact what the individual(s) are giving up is true. From many sources, its was very successful. So is cutting off finger toes and noses. So is burning sensitive areas. So is the rack. Does that make those methods not torture? BTW, professional interrogators know that torture does not produce the best intel. It produces intel, but not as good as other humane methods. So it's morally wrong, illegal, and less effective than legal and moral methods. Why do it at all? But drones are OK?Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #67 December 11, 2014 grue***I'm sorry, I remember how I felt and reacted to 9/11. I do not have sympathy for terrorists. Do you have sympathy for people who view the US's actions overseas as terroristic, who have lost their loved ones to unprovoked attacks on civilians? That would be a good question to ask your beloved Obama...who has used drones to kill and in fact those drones have killed hundreds of innocent women and children. Can't recall, interrogation methods killing innocent women and children. Many here on DZ.COM have a moral dilemma. War is too important to be left to the posters on this blog..., they have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow liberal infiltration, liberal indoctrination, liberal subversion and the international liberal conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious liberties we have fought and died for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,546 #68 December 11, 2014 lawrocket Here's the thing: give me three minutes and I can have you swearing that it as you on the grassy knoll and provide all kinds of corroborating evidence within five minutes. I'll have you tell me where Jimmy Hoffa is. You will tell me. And finally, you will answer "yes" when I ask you whether you were Barney Frank's lover. And you will answer yes. On video. This sounds familiar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoqmH49VBC0&t=1m47s"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #69 December 11, 2014 QuoteBut drones are OK? Drones, like guns, are an inanimate tool. They can be okay, it depends on how they are used. It's the action of using a tool that can be moral or immoral. The tool itself doesn't have morality. Torture is an action. It is never okay. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #70 December 11, 2014 QuoteWar is too important to be left to the posters on this blog..., they have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow liberal infiltration, liberal indoctrination, liberal subversion and the international liberal conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious liberties we have fought and died for. Don't you mean precious bodily fluids? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #71 December 11, 2014 DanG Quote War is too important to be left to the posters on this blog..., they have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow liberal infiltration, liberal indoctrination, liberal subversion and the international liberal conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious liberties we have fought and died for. Don't you mean precious bodily fluids? YEA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 96 #72 December 11, 2014 Channman ******And thirdly, water boarding and sleep deprivation IMO is not torture. What is it then? A method to encourage an individual to talk...give up the goods that can be confirmed by other operatives that in fact what the individual(s) are giving up is true. From many sources, its was very successful.The best thing that I can say about this response is that luckily most of the people with attitudes like this are old and dying off. Can't happen soon enough.Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,546 #73 December 11, 2014 Quote If if didn't/doesn't work, why did/do we use it? An ex-CIA officer explains why: http://time.com/3627834/torture-report-cia-contractors/"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,723 #74 December 11, 2014 >But drones are OK? For surveillance? Sure. To do exactly the same thing that military aircraft do? Well, if F-14's were OK then drones are OK. For torture? No. If you can't tell the difference between drones and torture - well, we can be glad you are spending your time posting here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,340 #75 December 11, 2014 RonD1120If if didn't/doesn't work, why did/do we use it? Because it feels like it should work. QuoteDo the survivors/relatives of those killed on 9/11 have tortured memories? I'm afraid that's irrelevant.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
