Should you surrender to the police? (watch video)

[Anvilbrother 0]

Yes I did with you as an example off what you are willing to stand up for. You were the one that brought it up against this quote and tried to run off of it.

Quote

Don't tell us about "countless people". Show us where the patriot act has harmed, and caused these countless people to be wrongly prosecuted. I want actual facts, not some paranoid feelings of being spied on.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

that whole egocentric behaviour seems to be on the rise.

You were looking in a miror when you posted this?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,121]

rushmc

*** that whole egocentric behaviour seems to be on the rise.

You were looking in a miror when you posted this?

No, I was looking at a computer screen. But, now I understand why your sentences tend to look so funny.

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

****** that whole egocentric behaviour seems to be on the rise.

You were looking in a miror when you posted this?

No, I was looking at a computer screen. But, now I understand why your sentences tend to look so funny.

Ahhh
Your reflection
Got it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[champu 1]

Anvilbrother

The patriot act wiretapping found Osama bin laden and led to his death.

Given where the courier was located and the people I would imagine he was communicating with, I'm skeptical that any individual provisions of the PATRIOT act were as instrumental to that operation as you are claiming; never mind using that operation to justify the act as a whole.

[jakee 1,254]

Anvilbrother

Yes I did with you as an example off what you are willing to stand up for. You were the one that brought it up against this quote and tried to run off of it.

Quote

Don't tell us about "countless people". Show us where the patriot act has harmed, and caused these countless people to be wrongly prosecuted. I want actual facts, not some paranoid feelings of being spied on.

Again, source for Patriot act provisions being part of locating Bin Laden?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Anvilbrother 0]

http://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/usa-patriot-act-amendments-to-foreign-intelligence-surveillance-act-authorities
This how's how it helps

Wiretapping prior to 1978 under FISA was by tier 3 warrants for known persons and at a known location and was only stationary. Meaning if the person walked down the street to another house, or switched phones you had to go through the process all over again. Section 506 of the patriot act allowed roaming wiretaps.

This tells how it helped.

They got interested in the courier after his name was dropped after a gitmo prisoner gave it up. They then attempted to find him but was having trouble due to the fact that he changed his name. They found him and started wiretapping and tracking him. One day he was heard to say to a friend he was with the people he was with before, basically code words of sorts for he was back with Osama which the other guy basically said praise Allah or some shit. With his known past they decided to track him. They tracked the cell phone and mapped out his areas of movement and found a dead zone near abbottabad. The courier was found to have always driven at least 50 miles from the compound before inserting the battery in the cell phone. In 1994 iirc Osama was nearly caught or blown up due to tracked sat phones and this led to the rule to keep phones off. They then started using drones to map out the area where the phone dropped off the grid. They found a compound built very suspiciously with high walls, where only certain people came and went and they even burned their garbage. They started to intensely survey that area. They even came up with the fake vaccination program that got the Pakistani doctor in hot water remember? Anyways they decided it was his compound, and the seals did their thing.

Tldr they found Osama with the patriot act extensions that allowed roaming wiretaps.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/02/osama-bin-laden-dead-one-phone-call_n_856674.html

I'm typing on an iPhone going down the road so excuse the mes I will fix it when I get to a PC.
Basically google wiretap osama and read.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

Wiretapping prior to 1978 under FISA was by tier 3 warrants for known persons and at a known location and was only stationary. Meaning if the person walked down the street to another house, or switched phones you had to go through the process all over again. Section 506 of the patriot act allowed roaming wiretaps.

Inside or outside the USA?

Frankly I think the FBI link is useless because the FBI is not responsible for wiretaps in Pakistan.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

Frankly I think the FBI link is useless because the FBI is not responsible for wiretaps in Pakistan.

The FBI link was to only show the existing law of FISA, and how the Patriot act expanded and made wiretapping seamless and faster for moving targets. I did not intend to mean the FBI was the one doing the wiretaps in Pakistan. The CIA and that bad ass female agent that tracked him for 10 years was in charge of that.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[jakee 1,254]

Anvilbrother

Quote

Frankly I think the FBI link is useless because the FBI is not responsible for wiretaps in Pakistan.

The FBI link was to only show the existing law of FISA, and how the Patriot act expanded and made wiretapping seamless and faster for moving targets. I did not intend to mean the FBI was the one doing the wiretaps in Pakistan. The CIA and that bad ass female agent that tracked him for 10 years was in charge of that.

Ok, so no matter who performed the wiretaps in Pakistan (yes, I've seen Zero Dark Thirty too) what's the relevance of FISA anyway? FISA applies to surveillance of foreigners or agents of foreign powers while they are inside the USA. It has zero impact on what happens outside US borders.

Look it up, I'll wait.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

Ok, so no matter who performed the wiretaps in Pakistan (yes, I've seen Zero Dark Thirty tooTongue) what's the relevance of FISA anyway? FISA applies to surveillance of foreigners or agents of foreign powers while they are inside the USA. It has zero impact on what happens outside US borders.

Look it up, I'll wait.

You may want to read the amendments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act#Terrorist_Surveillance_Act_of_2006

And no I have not seen that movie.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[jakee 1,254]

OK, so if you're moving to that amendment you're admitting that the thing about stationary vs roaming is wrong, right?

Then, as far as I can see the 2007 amendment (the 2006 ones linked didn't become law, so I skipped to the next) is about the ability to compel, without a warrant, the co-operation of US communications companies in tapping the communications of people who are or may be using their service outside the US.

Was that the case? Was the courier using a cell phone that was tapped with the co-operation a US communications company in a manner that would have previously been illegal?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Listen Jakee im not some patriot act expert and neither are you. I laid out what I know through reading and listening to audio book accounts from the actual people who were involved in capturing Osama which states they found him via cell phone taps. The Patriot act expanded FISA to include roaming taps, and further amendments to FISA helped them get overseas, and the Patriot act applies to the CIA.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

Listen Jakee im not some patriot act expert

OK, so you don't know whether it helped get Osama or not. Coulda just said so.

Quote

The Patriot act expanded FISA to include roaming taps,

In the USA.

Quote

and further amendments to FISA helped them get overseas,

In what way, specifically?

Your argument seems to be based on the idea that before 2007 it was illegal for the CIA to spy on foreign people in foreign countries in ways that wouldn't be permitted for US citizens inside the US. In that case how were you fighting the cold war?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[justme12001 0]

I think surrender is the wrong word, I think comply would be a more fitting word.

And yes, I think you should comply with the police!

Yes you have the right to not tell them who you are or give them your ID without cause, but why would you not? Unless you have something to hide, and if they think you have something to hide then they are going to want to find out who you are all the more.

So, being a law abiding citizen, if some cop randomly stops and asks me who I am, what I'm doing, and for my ID. Give them your explanation and ID and then be on your way.....

Or when they ask, you could be an ass and say I know my rights, I don't have to tell or give you anything. Best case if you do this, you spend half an hour arguing with them, worst case you end up in jail over night or shot.

And, you as a common citizen have no idea what is going on on the next block over, or what call this cop just got on the radio. Just because you are not doing anything wrong doesn't mean you don't match the description of someone who just did!!

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Anvilbrother

Don't tell us about "countless people". Show us where the patriot act has harmed, and caused these countless people to be wrongly prosecuted. I want actual facts, not some paranoid feelings of being spied on.

Not prosecuted, but certainly detained.

A lot of people ended up in jail because they were on the "No Fly" list..

https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/no-fly-list-where-fbi-goes-fishing-informants

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

OK, so you don't know whether it helped get Osama or not. Coulda just said so.

No im saying I am not sure how EXACTLY in some Judge/Lawyer/CIA technical way your trying to get me to explain it way. Like what specific limitations were modified under the multiple amendments, what was expanded and when, what existed before or not, what got easier, harder etc. The few seal team members that wrote books about it describe it, I suggest you contact them, or buy the books like I did.

Quote

In the USA.

Correct in the USA, and then further expanded with amendments here

Quote

On July 28, 2007, President Bush called on Congress to pass legislation to reform the FISA in order to ease restrictions on surveillance of terrorist suspects where one party (or both parties) to the communication are located overseas.

and here

Quote

The 2008 amendment of FISA gave telecoms immunity, increased the time allotted for warrantless surveillance, and adds provisions for emergency eavesdropping.

Section 206: "Roving Surveillance Authority Under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978" is just one part of it, I am sure there are other parts of the patriot act that they could use, or existing laws they could use. I just know what I have read and have heard in audio books. If anyone here who is in the CIA can speak up and tell us otherwise that would be great.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Kingsixx 0]

Without reading all of the other commentary aside from the OP, it is usually very unwise to resist. When you decide you want to fight it out, you're sealing your own fate.

There are more fruitful ways to "fight".

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi 12001,

Quote

you have the right to not tell them who you are or give them your ID without cause

It depends. Back in the 60's ( I'm not sure about now ) in Oregon, if were issued a Driver's License, the law req'd you to show to anyone who asked to see it, not just a LEO.

Jerry Baumchen

[jakee 1,254]

justme12001

And, you as a common citizen have no idea what is going on on the next block over, or what call this cop just got on the radio. Just because you are not doing anything wrong doesn't mean you don't match the description of someone who just did!!

So if they've got a good reason, let them tell you that. Why wouldn't they?

There was a great lecture put onto YouTube a while ago about why it's not in your best interest to volunteer any information to a police officer without a lawyer present. You can skip to the bit halfway through where the policeman who's there for the rebuttal agrees with him.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

No im saying I am not sure how EXACTLY in some Judge/Lawyer/CIA technical way your trying to get me to explain it way. Like what specific limitations were modified under the multiple amendments, what was expanded and when, what existed before or not, what got easier, harder etc.

OK, so if you have no idea how or what part of the Patriot act helped get Osama then how on earth can you claim to be certain that it did?

Quote

The few seal team members that wrote books about it describe it,

Why would the Seal team know about it? They didn't find Osama, they just went in and shot him.

Quote

Correct in the USA, and then further expanded with amendments here

But can you show that the amenment eased that particular restriction outside of the USA, or if it even was a restriction outside the USA in this particular instance. And even if both of those things are true, can you show that it was used in the case of Osama's courier? Was he making phone calls that were routed through the USA?

Quote

Section 206: "Roving Surveillance Authority Under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978" is just one part of it, I am sure there are other parts of the patriot act that they could use, or existing laws they could use.

Wait, now you're sure they could have used existing laws? So why are you giving the praise to the Patriot act if they could have done it all anyway?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

JerryBaumchen

Hi 12001,

Quote

you have the right to not tell them who you are or give them your ID without cause

It depends. Back in the 60's ( I'm not sure about now ) in Oregon, if were issued a Driver's License, the law req'd you to show to anyone who asked to see it, not just a LEO.

Jerry Baumchen

Agreed on "It depends."
If you are exercising the privileges of the DL (driving a car), then you are.
If you are just walking down the street, not so much.

FWIW, it's the same thing for pilots. Anyone getting on the plane at the DZ is within their rights to ask the pilot to show his commercial license and 2nd class medical.
But if a particular pilot isn't flying that day, he doesn't have to show it if he doesn't want to.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[justme12001 0]

So if they've got a good reason, let them tell you that. Why wouldn't they?

They most likely will, after you let them know who you are. They like to keep things on a need to know basis for the simple fact, if they tell you "x" just happened at this location, then there is a good chance you are going to say you where somewhere else.

If you are the one they are looking for or look like the one they are looking for then they have every right to question you. If you say you were in the area when "x" happened then they can question you about what you saw. If you don't match the description of the person they are looking for and say you were at different location when "x" happened then they know that you are of no use to them and can let you go. BUT they can't know what you know or who you are until they question you.

So to make your life easy and not get shot, just answer the questions you are asked and don't be an ass.

[wmw999 2,121]

Quote

So to make your life easy and not get shot, just answer the questions you are asked and don't be an ass.

When you're in a commonly-profiled group (whether it's Middle-eastern looking people in an airport, or minority-looking people driving in an expensive neighborhood, or whatever), it probably gets a little old.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

They most likely will, after you let them know who you are. They like to keep things on a need to know basis for the simple fact, if they tell you "x" just happened at this location, then there is a good chance you are going to say you where somewhere else.

Right, but they also like to just stop and question random people.

If people could know that when a policeman stops them he's not just being an ass there would be no need to be an ass back. But they are so there is.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?