Trouble for Bridge Day - finger printing

[Rover 9]

http://www.basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2978135;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I realise this is not skydiving but thought it would be of interest for those considering a trip to West Virginia.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[Bluhdow 31]

Go onto their Facebook page and blow them up with boycott messages. It's already well underway!

https://www.facebook.com/bridgedaywv

Apex BASE
#1816

[riggerrob 558]

Play nice.
Mail them your urine sample.
Mail the bottle next week.

[Boomerdog 0]

How much money comes to Fayetteville, WV, the week leading up to and the Saturday of Bridge Day?

Assuming the report is true, the entire skydiving and base jumping communities should just opt out. Let the city government and the local business voice their displeasure to the LEO's.

Money talks and bullshit walks.

[SkySpice 0]

Are the going to background check all the spectators too? There could be all kinds of wanted felons wandering around on that bridge...

[Bolas 5]

SkySpice

Are the going to background check all the spectators too? There could be all kinds of wanted felons wandering around on that bridge...

The reasoning they used to give for the background check was the BASE jumpers and rappellers were the only ones allowed on the bridge with "backpacks" and they weren't searched so "for safety" required alternate protection methods.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[DHemer 0]

If the "backpack" thing is there reasoning the organisers should propose a x-ray machine like at an airport security check and check that no one is hiding and explosives/drugs/beer in their rig

This sort of thing just makes me sad though

[JohnMitchell 14]

Iago

Apparently the WVSP never liked Bridge Day to begin with and want it gone.

I hope there is a severe backlash from all the local businesses and others that profit from hosting this event. When did the police forget that they are public servants, not masters?

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

When did the police forget that they are public servants, not masters?

I could do a hell of a thread on that one.
It would have to be in Speaker's Corner, though.

Hey, John, remember as a kid back in the 60's watching the cultural conflict between the cops and "dirty hippies"? A lot of it is just an extension of that. Old mindsets die hard.

[SkySpice 0]

Bolas

***Are the going to background check all the spectators too? There could be all kinds of wanted felons wandering around on that bridge...

The reasoning they used to give for the background check was the BASE jumpers and rappellers were the only ones allowed on the bridge with "backpacks" and they weren't searched so "for safety" required alternate protection methods.

Thanks of that info. So it all goes back to terrorism...

But the assumption is that a terrorist couldn't possibly pass a background check in order to sneak a bomb onto the bridge. Or that they couldn't assume the identify of someone who has. Or that they couldn't fake a permit. All of those are false presumptions.

[BillyVance 34]

JohnMitchell

***

Apparently the WVSP never liked Bridge Day to begin with and want it gone.

I hope there is a severe backlash from all the local businesses and others that profit from hosting this event. When did the police forget that they are public servants, not masters?

Part of the problem is they have had to deal with bandit base jumps off the bridge on other days in the past.

If you want a legitimate event that allows legal jumps to continue, don't be a dumb ass and jump it illegally.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[mcordell 2]

Andy9o8

Quote

When did the police forget that they are public servants, not masters?

I could do a hell of a thread on that one.
It would have to be in Speaker's Corner, though.

Hey, John, remember as a kid back in the 60's watching the cultural conflict between the cops and "dirty hippies"? A lot of it is just an extension of that. Old mindsets die hard.

FWIW, I'm pretty laid back and obviously don't have a negative stereotype of skydivers. I would assume the LEOs that I work with would feel the same. I don't think all officers have an "us versus them" mentality. A good number of us actually have great interaction with the public and understand our role as public servants. Unfortunately there are a few in the mix that don't seem to understand that and they are the ones that make the headlines. There are also some members of the public that think that just because I'm a public servant that makes me their servant.

As far as the original point of this thread, where in statute is authority granted to the state police to make these determinations? Is it illegal to jump without a permit which must be granted by the state police or something? Is it the permit issuing authority they are using to demand fingerprints? If they are concerned about the potential of terrorism, wouldn't it make more sense to have a few people with base equipment expertise to check rigs before they are allowed on the bridge to ensure they are what they are purported to be?

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[billvon 2,380]

> Is it illegal to jump without a permit which must be granted by the state police or something?

Permit comes from, IIRC, the BLM. The cops just patrol the bridge. (BTW this nonsense has been going on for at least 20 years; in 1993 they tried to search all the BASE jumpers, because they could blow up the bridge and be OK themselves because, you know, they had parachutes.)

[Boomerdog 0]

I might understand the issue of terrorism and infrastructure protection etc. While this might be a valid justification there's a factor here that just smacks of pretext which allows for the WVSP to run this data for prior warrants etc. and all this with very little if any probable cause to make any justifiable argument by the State. And of course, the question is begged...why now? We are 13+ years after 9/11 and a couple past the tragedy of the Boston Marathon.

Sadly, perhaps it's time to pull the plug on New River Bridge Day. A unanimous postion by the Skydiving Community standing in support with the BASE Jumping Community is certainly called for. Fayetteville, WV, City Government knows the financial impact if Bridge Day ceases to be. There are other places who want the $$$ the sport brings to the local economy and will not (hopefully) impose so many bureaucratic obstacles.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

mcordell

...As far as the original point of this thread, where in statute is authority granted to the state police to make these determinations? Is it illegal to jump without a permit which must be granted by the state police or something? Is it the permit issuing authority they are using to demand fingerprints? If they are concerned about the potential of terrorism, wouldn't it make more sense to have a few people with base equipment expertise to check rigs before they are allowed on the bridge to ensure they are what they are purported to be?

If you read the thread over at BJ.com (linked in OP), the cops are part of the Bridge Day committee. The committee writes the contract that the organizers operate under. The old contract is up and they are negotiating a new one. The cops are insisting that fingerprinting be part of the new contract. It seems possible (probable?) that the cops either want to extend their authority over the jumpers just "because they can" or make the conditions of the contract so objectionable that Bridge Day "goes away."
It doesn't seem to have anything to do with actual terrorism. The cops are saying that they want to check prints for "outstanding warrants and registered sexual predators."

At least that's how I understood what I was reading. I could be wrong.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[mcordell 2]

wolfriverjoe

If you read the thread over at BJ.com (linked in OP), the cops are part of the Bridge Day committee. The committee writes the contract that the organizers operate under. The old contract is up and they are negotiating a new one. The cops are insisting that fingerprinting be part of the new contract. It seems possible (probable?) that the cops either want to extend their authority over the jumpers just "because they can" or make the conditions of the contract so objectionable that Bridge Day "goes away."
It doesn't seem to have anything to do with actual terrorism. The cops are saying that they want to check prints for "outstanding warrants and registered sexual predators."

At least that's how I understood what I was reading. I could be wrong.

Here's where the issue lies for both sides based on that information. As an officer I cannot stop and identify someone just to do it. People are not required to provide me with ID and I have no justification to stop them from going about their business unless I can articulate "reasonable suspicion" for the stop. No officer has ever had to have "probable cause" for a stop or temporary detention as everyone seems to think. Probable cause is required for an arrest to be made. This temporary stop based on reasonable suspicion would allow me to identify someone and check for warrants. Without reasonable suspicion I cannot force someone to submit to an ID check. This is where things get muddy. There are exceptions. If law enforcement issues permits or is the authority allowing you to engage in some behavior that is not inherently legal then it isn't a right. If it isn't a right then you have to submit to whatever qualifying factors the police wish to impose. The reason it is not a violation of your constitutional rights is because whatever you are doing that requires a permit or permission is not a right but a privilege and you can simply choose not to do it and not be subjected to a search.

This would be most evident in public transportation (flying) or entry into some venue which requires a ticket. Even if the venue is paid for with tax dollars, the purchase of a ticket would come with an understanding that you are subject to search.

(this is a really brief overview of what is sometimes a complex legal issue)

If the state police are on the committee and have the ability to require fingerprinting for base jumping, it isn't a violation of anyone's rights because they aren't singling anyone out and that is the cost of admission in a way. Besides that, jumpers can choose not to attend so there is no forced search or anything like that.

I ABSOLUTELY agree it is entirely unnecessary to print each jumper and you can bet the persons responsible for collecting all those prints don't want to do it any more than you want it done. This reeks of a command staff level decision that is not supported by the people doing the work. I think if this is a committee decision and not just that of the law enforcement authority, then if it is made clear there will be a significant loss of revenue resulting from implementing this requirement then I think the committee will decide against it. In order for that to happen though, people will have to stand together to make it clear that this is where the line will be drawn.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

This reeks of a command staff level decision that is not supported by the people doing the work. I think if this is a committee decision and not just that of the law enforcement authority, then if it is made clear there will be a significant loss of revenue resulting from implementing this requirement then I think the committee will decide against it. In order for that to happen though, people will have to stand together to make it clear that this is where the line will be drawn.

Yup, I think you're correct on all counts particularly on the very likely possibility that this was a command staff level decision. Now the badges on the beat and down in the trenches have to make this work. As is usually the case, "the stuff" rolls down hill.

[Armour666 0]

Bolas

The reasoning they used to give for the background check was the BASE jumpers and rappellers were the only ones allowed on the bridge with "backpacks" and they weren't searched so "for safety" required alternate protection methods.

For the rappelrs They already make give all our information submit a photo and on the day of line all our bags up for bomb dogs to go through. Once that is done we can't leave the site without being subjected to search at the public gates. They have national guards on every shuttle bus.

SO this one time at band camp.....

"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."

[baronn 111]

Not to mention the snipers in Gilly suits hiding in the hills. All done for "security"
Though this will surely put me on a watch list, if a person wanted to blow the bridge, all that would be needed is to load 1 of the MANY raft busses with fertilizer and diesel. I've NEVER seen them stopped or searched.....

[skyjumpenfool 2]

hmmm? Don't be surprised if they aren't going to compare prints with those found on various radio towers, tall buildings, and other structures that have been broken into and jumped.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[colossus 0]

IMHO a simple solution: have the money talk. Talk to the major sponsors like Subaru and tell them that the jumpers are not going to come next year due to the finger printing.

The sponsor will support the jumpers at other locations.

[Phil1111 908]

Background checks for sporting events. What will they think of next!

Imagine if they had background checks for NFL games. They would have to cancel everything.

[mpohl 1]

Quite a while ago...

They have a morphed into para-military occupying force. Because Americans allowed it to happen.

JohnMitchell

***
When did the police forget that they are public servants, not masters?

[FastRon 0]

Fingerprinting for records checks ia a complicated way to accomplish same. Name and birthdate are all that is necessary-SSN is usually an unnecessary luxury. If the jumpers are already providing that info, the fingerprints obtained would be for some other reason(s)...

[piisfish 135]

Land of the free, like North Korea

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM