Backintothesky 0 #26 November 4, 2014 Thin end of the wedge argument works here. There's a danger that it will start off as just for the "terminally ill" and then transition to anyone who wants to kill themselves can. We saw the same with legalized abortion (not that I'm against that) - now anyone can do it. It's a typical pattern for most laws/rules. It's not quite as simple as either side of the debate makes out. I remember this being a hot topic in my philosophy classes in the late 90s - nothing has changed, there are still the same moral and logistical problems. stayhigh CDC reports that at 2012, over 40000 suicide were recorded. Half of them by firearm, the other majority being suffocation. When Brittany Maynard took her own life due to her illness, it has sparked arguments. Is it right or wrong? I feel that this should be an available option for everyone regardless of medical condition. Even to those who are suffering from chronic depression/suicidal ideation. Why let these people suffer and only to prolong their life and make others miserable? Many don't commit suicide due to the failure ratio. Even with the shotgun in the mouth, the method is not guaranteed to end. Many suicidal people actually do care about what they look like after their death, or what kind of impact would they give to their family and friends. I'd say let people die on their own term. I'm not talking about the IAD student progression either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 60 #27 November 4, 2014 Agreed, senior depression is a common malady. My rough period was 1971 - 79 when I was 29 - 37 YO.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #28 November 4, 2014 The Sunset Limited deals with the issue of suicide. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a98W-vW0sh4"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,392 #29 November 4, 2014 I agree with active euthanasia/assisted suicide for those who are termanilly ill and in constant pain. I believe it has to be verified by independent doctor(s), after request of the patient. I further believe that the patient has to be lucid and of sound mind to request it. Those with mental illness do not fall into that category. However as a side note, I fully agree with lawrocket on this: QuotePerhaps a better solution for helping people with mental illness is to not destroy their lives if they ask for help. Rather than taking away rights and privileges for asking for help, how about treating depression like any other chronic medical problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 355 #30 November 4, 2014 QuotePerhaps a better solution for helping people with mental illness is to not destroy their lives if they ask for help. Rather than taking away rights and privileges for asking for help, how about treating depression like any other chronic medical problem. This is key. We have to stop stigmatizing people for merely being ill. The brain is a physical organ like the heart or kidney, only perhaps more complex, and like any other organ things can go wrong. Unfortunately we as a society still carry too much baggage stemming from the religious idea that the personality/soul is a supernatural being that inhabits the physical body; with this perspective mental illness is viewed as a defect in the personality, not as a defect in the physical structure of the body. Most people won't state their belief quite so bluntly, but it's clear to me that the concept of a dichotomy between the personality and the physical body underlies much of societies attitude towards mental illness. Anyway, I think simply having a process for assisted suicide will be immensely helpful to people suffering from chronic depression. First, to access the process (get a prescription) you will have to consult two doctors, which opens the door to treatment instead of suffering in silence. Second, just knowing you have a way to "pull the plug" sometimes helps people to tolerate a level of pain that would be overwhelmingly frightening if you knew there was nothing you could do to stop it. About half the patients who are issued a prescription for a "suicide drug" end up not using it, but the knowledge that it is there if needed gives a sense of being in control that gives strength to fight a bit more. I recall an interesting article around the time of Robin Williams' death. Imagine yourself as one of those unfortunate people trapped in the world trade center as it burned. Your only choice is to stay in the building and burn to death, surely one of the most painful ways to die that exists, or to jump, knowing you will certainly die but it will be quick and relatively painless. Who blames those people who jumped, or insists they should have stuck it out and burned? Severe depression is that kind of pain; even though it is mental it is no less real to the people experiencing it. The difference from fire is that it just goes on and on without end. What we currently have in most of the US is a system that compels people to suffer miserably, often in agonizing pain and utter and complete dependence on others for every aspect of their lives. The alternative is to be drugged into blissful unawareness of the pain but also of everything else. Either way, people are kept "alive" long enough for the medical system to suck every penny out of their lifetime's efforts to make provision for their loved ones. In all honestly, anyone who makes their dog suffer the way we make some terminally ill patients suffer (under the guise of "compassion" and "respect for life") would be charged with and convicted of animal cruelty. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #31 November 4, 2014 GeorgiaDon I recall an interesting article around the time of Robin Williams' death. Imagine yourself as one of those unfortunate people trapped in the world trade center as it burned. Your only choice is to stay in the building and burn to death, surely one of the most painful ways to die that exists, or to jump, knowing you will certainly die but it will be quick and relatively painless. Who blames those people who jumped, or insists they should have stuck it out and burned? Severe depression is that kind of pain; even though it is mental it is no less real to the people experiencing it. The difference from fire is that it just goes on and on without end. I don't know when those people choose to jump. Did they wait till it got hot, or did many of them opt to end the waiting? What if there was potential rescue in the form of an escape route or water putting out the flames? Giving up hope too soon on incomplete information means you died for nothing. The people with severe depression may believe there's no other solution, but they're not all correct in this. If society is going to give them a final solution, it has to consider this for them, to safeguard them against making the decision rashly. At the Berlin Wall remains they have markers for all the people that were killed trying to cross it. The most striking one to me was that of the last guy, who was killed just before the abrupt tearing down. What bad luck for him. He could not have foreseen how quickly the fall of the Soviet satellites would occur. One might predict it was a few years away, but we've been predicting the end of the Cuba nonsense for a few decades now. So he took the highly risky move and died in the process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #32 November 4, 2014 If you're going to log out from life, ideally your affairs will be in order and you won't leave an enormous mess, be it logistical financial or physical, for others to clean up. If people insist on using firearms they should do it in a chest freezer for easiest possible cleanup.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #33 November 4, 2014 BackintotheskyThin end of the wedge argument works here. There's a danger that it will start off as just for the "terminally ill" and then transition to anyone who wants to kill themselves can. It's their body, and their choice. I don't see how anyone thinks they should have the right to tell a consenting adult what he or she can do with his or her own meat.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,392 #34 November 4, 2014 grue***Thin end of the wedge argument works here. There's a danger that it will start off as just for the "terminally ill" and then transition to anyone who wants to kill themselves can. It's their body, and their choice. I don't see how anyone thinks they should have the right to tell a consenting adult what he or she can do with his or her own meat. Because you first have to establish they are mentally capapable of making the decision and understanding consequences. Some people do need to be protected from themselves. Unless of course as a society we are ok with a more pure darwinian system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #35 November 4, 2014 SkyDekker Because you first have to establish they are mentally capapable of making the decision and understanding consequences. Some people do need to be protected from themselves. Unless of course as a society we are ok with a more pure darwinian system. Who are we (as a society) to tell someone they're not capable of making a decision for himself or herself? Nobody asked these people if they wanted to be brought into the world, how we can deny them their RIGHT to leave it?cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,392 #36 November 4, 2014 grue*** Because you first have to establish they are mentally capapable of making the decision and understanding consequences. Some people do need to be protected from themselves. Unless of course as a society we are ok with a more pure darwinian system. Who are we (as a society) to tell someone they're not capable of making a decision for himself or herself? Nobody asked these people if they wanted to be brought into the world, how we can deny them their RIGHT to leave it? Because as a society we feel we need to protect certain people from themselves. Those with mental afflictions resulting in deminished mental capacities. Those who have not reached a certain age. These are but a few examples. When not just related to assisted suicide, as a society we constantly tell people they are not capable at making certain decisions at different parts or situations in their lives. Age restrictions, reduced or eliminated culpability in criminal proceedings, the list goes on and on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #37 November 4, 2014 SkyDekker****** Because you first have to establish they are mentally capapable of making the decision and understanding consequences. Some people do need to be protected from themselves. Unless of course as a society we are ok with a more pure darwinian system. Who are we (as a society) to tell someone they're not capable of making a decision for himself or herself? Nobody asked these people if they wanted to be brought into the world, how we can deny them their RIGHT to leave it? Because as a society we feel we need to protect certain people from themselves. Those with mental afflictions resulting in deminished mental capacities. Those who have not reached a certain age. These are but a few examples. When not just related to assisted suicide, as a society we constantly tell people they are not capable at making certain decisions at different parts or situations in their lives. Age restrictions, reduced or eliminated culpability in criminal proceedings, the list goes on and on. People used to get killed for saying the earth circled the sun, because society at large believed otherwise. I'm not convinced we've improved much.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #38 November 4, 2014 Your Life Your choice i don't agree with it at all but i think its up to the individual.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #39 November 4, 2014 The Vatican has decided it's their business: Vatican condemns suicide of US cancer victim Brittany Maynard. Vatican's top ethicist describes cancer victim Brittany Maynard's decision to take her own life as an "absurdity" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #40 November 4, 2014 Andy9o8The Vatican has decided it's their business: Vatican condemns suicide of US cancer victim Brittany Maynard. Vatican's top ethicist describes cancer victim Brittany Maynard's decision to take her own life as an "absurdity" grue describes Vatican's top ethicist as "a cunt".cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,426 #41 November 4, 2014 I'd say that the job title "Vatican's top ethicist" is something of an absurdity. Maybe I'm being too harsh though, after all, someone has to decide whether to hand child molesting priests over to the authorities or give them a cushy retirement in the country, don't they?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #42 November 4, 2014 QuoteThe Vatican has decided it's their business: I dont give a flying shit what that enormous pyramid scheme thinks. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #43 November 5, 2014 AnvilbrotherQuoteThe Vatican has decided it's their business: I dont give a flying shit what that enormous pyramid scheme thinks. Agreed. I'm particularly amazed that so many people take relationship guidance from a bunch of celibate old men who have absolutely no idea.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,333 #44 November 5, 2014 Hi Anvil, Quote I dont give a flying . . . pyramid scheme thinks. OK, we're back to agreeing again. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,333 #45 November 5, 2014 Hi Andy, Quote The Vatican has decided it's their business: Old news actually. The local 'Archdioces' ( you figure out the spelling ) last week condemned her for wanting to her own life. Pathetic, Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #46 November 5, 2014 If the power of god is so great, why don't they just prey harder? Obviously it is not working so they have to go out and preach.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 79 #47 November 5, 2014 stayhigh .......why don't they just prey harder? Oh, but they do....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Backintothesky 0 #48 November 5, 2014 Nothing is stopping anyone from killing themselves - in most countries these days suicide is not a crime. No-one is saying that people shouldn't be able to kill themselves if they want to. It's sad but people have that option if they want to. It becomes a delicate problem when you involve third parties - particularly the state, in suicide. It becomes open to corruption. Check out the case of Harold Shipman in the UK - a doctor who was discovered to have killed over 200 people, making him one of the most "effective" serial killers in the UK. He was able to escape detection for a long time because he killed them using morphine (for the most part) and used his position to cover up the real cause of death. Yes, it would be lovely if people who had terminal illness were able to end their lives as and when they wished with the help of others. BUT, you are opening the doors to people such as Shipman to take advantage. Unfortunately there are people in this world who would push their own mothers towards assisted suicide if it meant they could get their hands on their wills quicker. It has absolutely nothing to do with telling people what to do with their own bodies and everything to do with protecting people from being murdered under the guise of "assisted suicide". grue***Thin end of the wedge argument works here. There's a danger that it will start off as just for the "terminally ill" and then transition to anyone who wants to kill themselves can. It's their body, and their choice. I don't see how anyone thinks they should have the right to tell a consenting adult what he or she can do with his or her own meat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #49 November 5, 2014 In all countries suicide is not a crime. An attempted suicide is a crime. That has to be the shittiest feeling in the world. You failed at killing yourself and now you get punished for it. Almost sounds like the law encouraging them to try harder next time.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Backintothesky 0 #50 November 7, 2014 Depends where you are. 1961 Suicide Act in UK decriminalized suicide attempts. I personally think it's led to more people just not doing it properly. At least before you had to make sure you finished the job...ah the good old days stayhigh In all countries suicide is not a crime. An attempted suicide is a crime. That has to be the shittiest feeling in the world. You failed at killing yourself and now you get punished for it. Almost sounds like the law encouraging them to try harder next time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites