First Ebola Diagnosis in US

[billvon 2,689]

>They opened with their typical BREAKING NEWS and it was all about how the very
>same airplane that brought this guy to the USA has been to Portland, twice. The
>two talking heads were coming unglued.

I hear they dumped the lavatories into a holding tank, and then sent the waste to a sewage treatment facility, and the filtered water was dumped in the OCEAN! Officials we contacted could not confirm that a plan to sanitize the ocean had been started.

[wmw999 2,293]

Can you catch Ebola on a plane?
Can you catch Ebola on a train?
Can you catch Ebola in a car?
Can you catch Ebola in a bar?

I do not like Ebola, Sam!

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Andy9o8 0]

Calling Doctor Seuss! Code Blue!

[tigra 0]

Iago

So basically he knowingly got exposed and hopped a plane to the US. Probably so if he DID get sick he would be treated in a US facility.

Beautiful.

That's my take on it as well, based on the way the story is unfolding.

[kelpdiver 2]

Iago

Regular people who are over there stay over there. If they HAVE to come back they go through quarantine at their expense. And they do that BEFORE they get on the plane.

ridiculous cost/benefit ratio aside, quarantines "over there" are not effective for protecting US soil. They're not going to be in an isolation chamber, they then are going to the airport somehow and interacting with even more people, and then they're getting on that crowded plane with 17" seat width. Plenty of opportunity for exposure.

So all you've created is considerable expense and a false sense of security (which means the TSA would be wildly in favor)

[billvon 2,689]

>ridiculous cost/benefit ratio aside, quarantines "over there" are not effective for
>protecting US soil. They're not going to be in an isolation chamber, they then are
>going to the airport somehow and interacting with even more people, and then
>they're getting on that crowded plane with 17" seat width. Plenty of opportunity
>for exposure.

Agreed. Imagine the following scenario:

Bucharest, under pressure from the US, agrees to such a quarantine. All travelers from Africa are quarantined - at least for a few days.

Then a few wealthy businessmen from Cairo manage to contact their lawyers, who threaten so many lawsuits that they are released. "There is no Ebola in Egypt." "This is racial discrimination based on a hatred of Africans, most of whom were not exposed." "We can prove they were never exposed in Cairo and three doctors will testify to that effect." They leave and get on their plane to New York.

Meanwhile they have been in "isolation" for two days with two actual cases of Ebola. And now they're in the US. Has our risk gone up or down?

[JerryBaumchen 1,247]

Hi Iago,

Quote

That's really a nonissue.

Actually, I think it is the issue.

Let's not be Chicken Little's running scared.

Ebola is a very serious disease but things need to be kept in perspective.

I have read that all males on this earth, if they live long enough, will die of prostate cancer.

I have read that all of the people on this earth, if they live long enough, will die of diabetes.

Something is going to kill all of us.

Don't be scared. Of course, be aware, but not scared.

YMMV

Jerry Baumchen

[hajnalka 0]

Me posting here at all was due to my anger that the "public health" system had failed - mainly because:

I could see the fear, panic and conspiracy theories starting

I worked as a public health nurse for a few years. We used to be so naive; we thought we could eradicate TB!

Anyone remember SARS? I was once working with a new jumper (packing and gear knowledge.) She was a flight attendant. She asked me about it; I minimized her concerns. Next week she was hospitalized with SARS. She eventually recovered but the emotional and economic impacts were harsh. She had to pull her kids out of school, and was ostracized. It hurt her for years.

Common sense seems to be in short supply. The 24/7 news cycle doesn't help. If everyone realized you can't catch Ebola via casual contact, this would be a non-issue.

Still, this is a deadly serious disease that invokes real fear, so I can see both sides.

If anyone really thinks countrywide quarantines would still work in this age of $ and air travel, they should looks at SARS and MERS. Also Marburg, and Ebola Reston. You should probably be more afraid of the worldwide monkey trade than this guy in Dallas.

[Dantes 0]

hajnalka

Me posting here at all was due to my anger that the "public health" system had failed - mainly because:

I could see the fear, panic and conspiracy theories starting

I worked as a public health nurse for a few years. We used to be so naive; we thought we could eradicate TB!

Anyone remember SARS? I was once working with a new jumper (packing and gear knowledge.) She was a flight attendant. She asked me about it; I minimized her concerns. Next week she was hospitalized with SARS. She eventually recovered but the emotional and economic impacts were harsh. She had to pull her kids out of school, and was ostracized. It hurt her for years.

Common sense seems to be in short supply. The 24/7 news cycle doesn't help. If everyone realized you can't catch Ebola via casual contact, this would be a non-issue.

Still, this is a deadly serious disease that invokes real fear, so I can see both sides.

If anyone really thinks countrywide quarantines would still work in this age of $ and air travel, they should looks at SARS and MERS. Also Marburg, and Ebola Reston. You should probably be more afraid of the worldwide monkey trade than this guy in Dallas.

I'm just going to leave this here. He seems to agree with you.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-02/doctor-boards-atlanta-flight-hazmat-suit-protest-lying-cdc

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

So basically he knowingly got exposed and hopped a plane to the US. Probably so if he DID get sick he would be treated in a US facility. Beautiful.

I'm sure he morally rationalized it. It brings up a classic Ethics 101 conundrum: You're exposed to Ebola in Liberia. Everyone who's been exposed to the same sick patient you helped is now sick or dead. You know that if you stay there, or if you tell the truth on the questionnaire, you're condemned to death, and soon. But you also know that the US has successfully treated victims. So you rationalize that not only can traveling to the US save your life, but also that if you do expose others, they, too, will be able to be saved by US or Western medicine. You might be prosecuted after your recovery... but you'll be alive. So what do you do - try to save your life and possibly endanger others, or accept the likelihood of death within days?

It's easy to condemn this guy from the outside looking in.

Quote

it does rise an interesting question, which is how long is the virus viable outside a host? if whats his face puked on the sidewalk and someone came along 12 hours later to clean it up is it still infectious? How about 24, 36, 48, or even 96?

And... it gets worse:

Dallas: Workers Spray Ebola Patients’ Vomit Off of Sidewalk with Pressure Washer and No Protective Clothing (Photos and Video)

[billvon 2,689]

>It brings up a classic Ethics 101 conundrum: You're exposed to Ebola in Liberia.
>Everyone who's been exposed to the same sick patient you helped is now sick or
>dead.

Or - your son thinks he might have been exposed to Ebola. He is in West Africa. Do you tell him to get home as soon as he can, or wait there and see if he gets sick?

One of the things that makes it hard to condemn this guy is that he contracted the disease trying to save the life of a 19 year old woman who was 7 months pregnant. Who here would be willing to walk away from such a woman and leave her to die in the street? (And further, who here would admit to that action on an embarkation form, if saying "yes" meant you would be taken quickly to an Ebola quarantine zone, where most other people had Ebola and there was almost no medical care?)

This is a good example of why it's so important to stop the disease at the source, rather than try to stop it once it gets here.

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]Officials we contacted could not confirm that a plan to sanitize the ocean had been started.

[JerryBaumchen 1,247]

Hi rocket,

Quote

some time in mid-November. . . So nothing to worry about.

Are you counting on the mid-term elections?

The Koch boys are pouring millions of dollars into Oregon trying to get a failed candidate, Monica Wheby, elected to the US Senate. Sorry boys, but no cigar.

Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 2,689]

>They accelerated global warming, and a computer model run 30 years ago shows
>that the oceans may be anthropogenically heated and devoid of life by some time
>in mid-November.

Not so fast! Seabirds have been seen as far inland as Denver. I have no idea if they carry it, but it will certainly sell more newspapers to talk about the seabird threat.

We will have to build a "border fence" of backdriven wind turbines to protect ourselves from this Ebola threat from the skies.

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

We will have to build a "border fence" of backdriven wind turbines to protect ourselves from this Ebola threat from the skies.

OOOOOHHHHHH

1 - illegal immigration mitigation
2 - alternate energy
3 - healthcare

all rolled up into one -

You running for office?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ryoder 1,537]

billvon

Not so fast! Seabirds have been seen as far inland as Denver.

True;
When I first moved here to CO, I thought I was hallucinating when I first saw gulls flying around the local supermarket parking lot.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[kelpdiver 2]

Andy9o8

I'm sure he morally rationalized it. It brings up a classic Ethics 101 conundrum: You're exposed to Ebola in Liberia. Everyone who's been exposed to the same sick patient you helped is now sick or dead. You know that if you stay there, or if you tell the truth on the questionnaire, you're condemned to death, and soon. But you also know that the US has successfully treated victims. So you rationalize that not only can traveling to the US save your life, but also that if you do expose others, they, too, will be able to be saved by US or Western medicine.

I think his rationalization is that since he's asymtomatic, he's not putting anyone at risk and he improves his chances substantially. And if (and very likely) no one on the plane gets sick, that is proven out.

But the actions with the ER show a bit less care and thinking. Or really none at all. If there are additional cases, I would expect it to center around that.

[billvon 2,689]

>I think his rationalization is that since he's asymtomatic, he's not putting anyone
>at risk and he improves his chances substantially. And if (and very likely) no one
>on the plane gets sick, that is proven out. But the actions with the ER show a
>bit less care and thinking. Or really none at all. If there are additional cases, I
>would expect it to center around that.

I think Hanlon's Razor is more likely there. "I didn't get sick so I am not contagious. And this form is asking if I am contagious."

[Bolas 5]

billvon

One of the things that makes it hard to condemn this guy is that he contracted the disease trying to save the life of a 19 year old woman who was 7 months pregnant. Who here would be willing to walk away from such a woman and leave her to die in the street? (And further, who here would admit to that action on an embarkation form, if saying "yes" meant you would be taken quickly to an Ebola quarantine zone, where most other people had Ebola and there was almost no medical care?)

Sorry, have to throw the BS card here.

The country had processes in place for this exact reason.

He violated one and put himself in danger then violated the second putting everyone in danger just trying to save his own ass.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,689]

>He violated one and put himself in danger . . . .

Yes, he did. But back to the implicit question above - if you saw a 19 year old woman, 7 months pregnant, dying on the sidewalk - would you leave her there? Just tell someone else "help her, I'm not touching her" and walk away?

>then violated the second putting everyone in danger just trying to save his own ass.

Again, yes. And honestly, if that were my son, I'd tell him to do the same thing. (Once he got home I'd get him to a hospital or at least get him isolated - but leaving him there would likely be a death sentence.)

[Bolas 5]

billvon

>He violated one and put himself in danger . . . .

Yes, he did. But back to the implicit question above - if you saw a 19 year old woman, 7 months pregnant, dying on the sidewalk - would you leave her there? Just tell someone else "help her, I'm not touching her" and walk away?

If I chose to help, would have accepted the consequences of that decision and not made it worse for anyone other than myself.

Quote

>then violated the second putting everyone in danger just trying to save his own ass.

Again, yes. And honestly, if that were my son, I'd tell him to do the same thing. (Once he got home I'd get him to a hospital or at least get him isolated - but leaving him there would likely be a death sentence.)

Hopefully you would have raised him well enough to ignore your emotional, selfish, and irrational suggestion.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[jcd11235 0]

billvon

Yes, he did. But back to the implicit question above - if you saw a 19 year old woman, 7 months pregnant, dying on the sidewalk - would you leave her there?

In the event oxygen masks drop down, put your own mask on before assisting others.

Personally, I find no honor in the actions of someone who would risk infection to save one person, only to subsequently risk infecting many others in order to increase one's own chances for survival.

Integrity => (Helping => Staying)

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 2,689]

>In the event oxygen masks drop down, put your own mask on before assisting others.

Well, in this case, it's more like "in the event oxygen masks drop down, put on your own mask and do not assist others."

I understand that helping someone like that woman is not the wisest thing to do from a top level view. But people often act out of compassion rather than from a global view of risk-benefit. And there are pluses to living in a world where that happens, even if there are health risks to it.

[Bolas 5]

billvon

>In the event oxygen masks drop down, put your own mask on before assisting others.

Well, in this case, it's more like "in the event oxygen masks drop down, put on your own mask and do not assist others."

I understand that helping someone like that woman is not the wisest thing to do from a top level view. But people often act out of compassion rather than from a global view of risk-benefit. And there are pluses to living in a world where that happens, even if there are health risks to it.

My issue is not with "trying" to help the other person as that's selfless and puts no one involuntarily at risk other than himself. Had he helped her, been honest about it and stayed in country...

His actions afterward are extremely selfish and self centered.

Starting to seriously wonder if this pregnant woman was just someone on the street or was the soon to be mother of his child as the actions afterward bear stark contrast.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[jcd11235 0]

billvon

I understand that helping someone like that woman is not the wisest thing to do from a top level view. But people often act out of compassion rather than from a global view of risk-benefit. And there are pluses to living in a world where that happens, even if there are health risks to it.

The problem isn't that he acted out of compassion. The problem is that he acted out of compassion and refused to bear the costs of doing so, instead knowingly compounding and forcing those costs onto others without their knowledge or consent.

I fail to see how such decisions are beneficial to the world.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!