winsor 186 #51 October 1, 2014 DanGQuote4) Two muslims walked in to my range last week with allah akbar ring tone and message alert tones on their smart phones. They spoke very little english, one did not have proof of U.S. citizenship, yet they wanted to rent and shoot guns. Their behavior was so strange, it was unnerving to my patrons. No one would enter the range to shoot while they were there. Some of my customers left. (can you blame them?) I think she has good reason to ban those two individuals. Extending the ban to all Muslims is stupid, prejudiced, and ignorant. RTFB. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #52 October 1, 2014 normiss Disney does it every day. I reply to you Mark, because I believe you have some Skin Art . . . I may be wrong. So my question is: If an entity can dictate clothing . . . can it dictate tattoos, or body art?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #53 October 1, 2014 QuoteRTFB. Huh? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtiflyer 0 #54 October 1, 2014 turtlespeed ***Disney does it every day. I reply to you Mark, because I believe you have some Skin Art . . . I may be wrong. So my question is: If an entity can dictate clothing . . . can it dictate tattoos, or body art? If you are asking if an employer can make an employee cover up tattoos the answer is yes. If you are visiting a private business I believe the answer is yes also. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #55 October 1, 2014 Yep. I have a half sleeve on my right arm.I have worked for two companies that required me to wear long sleeves. Really sucks in FL summers. I hope I'm at my last corporate job now. I do as I please at this one. Finally. Did you know Disney explicitly forbids "filed teeth" in their HR rules? Also of note, my sleeve is mostly flames, so I've had some security issues with "Firearm" being my nick name and most of the secure facilities I have worked at forbid firearms at work....no...seriously. It has. When co-workers sent out mass emails regarding "Firearm!" as the subject....yea...security called the cops. idiots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #56 October 1, 2014 normiss"Firearm" being my nick name... "And I'm Smokestoomuch." "Well, you better cut down a little then." "I'm sorry?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BartsDaddy 4 #57 October 1, 2014 My nickname is huge dick. I hope they are talking anatomy. But I have my doubts.LOL. Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Backintothesky 0 #58 October 1, 2014 Fantastic free advertising for her gun range..... I don't think even she believes she can know when someone is Muslim or not. She'll just ban those who look "suspicious" or stereotypically Muslim. She's just expressed it in a way that will get her national coverage and encourage more people who share her views to visit her gun range. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #59 October 1, 2014 QuoteThere are just too many Muslims currently living here. Most of them are indeed peaceful and minding their own businesses, but how sure are we that there aren't going to be some fuckstick pissed off at the U.S. for what we're doing in the Middle East and try to find ways to train for attacks? Everyone's a potential criminal. Get over it. In fact, it sounds to me like you're probably peaceful, but we can't be sure that you're not planning some racially motivated attacks of your own. I think we should lock you up just in case.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #60 October 1, 2014 QuoteI was one year old at the outbreak of WW II. I have talked to my mother numerous times about this and she still defends it. My dad, who served in the Navy in the south Pacific, went to his grave calling them 'Japs.' Nothing against your parents, but there are plenty of old people who went to their graves defending Jim Crow and calling black people niggers - just because they lived through it doesn't make them right.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #61 October 1, 2014 What would you do in a similar business situation?Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #62 October 1, 2014 Thank you for your legal opinion. I would like to read more in this regard from you. RE: Jan Morgan's gun range Does she have a legal stand regarding Islam as a theocracy not a religion or, the ATF gives her authorization to refuse business with anyone with whom she is uncomfortable? Note: I just clicked her link and now her blog page on the subject has been removed. I guess my above question is moot. However, I could not find any news articles that indicate she has changed her position.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #63 October 1, 2014 QuoteDoes she have a legal stand regarding Islam as a theocracy not a religion Why would she? What does that even mean? You can't just call something by a different name and therefore redefine the rules. You might as well say what's her legal standing regarding Islam as a unicorn?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 186 #64 October 1, 2014 DanGQuoteRTFB. Huh? Peruse such texts as 'The Book of Mormon,' 'The Koran' and 'Mein Kampf' if you wish to become familiar with the tenets of the 'ism' in question. Whether or not one adheres scrupulously to the rules they espouse, the fact that they consider them "The Rules" says it all. There is a significant difference between B'nai Mitzvah and Children of Israel, but with Universal religions there is no such distinction. BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #65 October 1, 2014 QuoteI have a half sleeve on my right arm.I have worked for two companies that required me to wear long sleeves Both arms and tattoos on all of my fingers. Wonder how a company would handle that. Luckily I work on the railroad."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #66 October 1, 2014 RonD1120What would you do in a similar business situation? How about... not ban all Muslims...? That's a serious answer by the way. Some guys were behaving in a disruptive fashion and she told them to leave. That's all you really have to do, and you're allowed to do that. The only thing banning Muslims does beyond that is prohibit people that aren't doing anything else you'd want to ask them to leave for from being there. Not surprisingly, some people will have a problem with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #67 October 1, 2014 BackintotheskyFantastic free advertising for her gun range...... OMG, yes. They should use it as a case study in Marketing 101. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #68 October 1, 2014 winsor***QuoteRTFB. Huh? Peruse such texts as 'The Book of Mormon,' 'The Koran' and 'Mein Kampf' if you wish to become familiar with the tenets of the 'ism' in question. Whether or not one adheres scrupulously to the rules they espouse, the fact that they consider them "The Rules" says it all. Or as Zimmerman paraphrased Deuteronomy, "Everybody must get stoned." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #69 October 1, 2014 QuotePeruse such texts as 'The Book of Mormon,' 'The Koran' and 'Mein Kampf' if you wish to become familiar with the tenets of the 'ism' in question. Whether or not one adheres scrupulously to the rules they espouse, the fact that they consider them "The Rules" says it all. There is a significant difference between B'nai Mitzvah and Children of Israel, but with Universal religions there is no such distinction. You need to clarify what you're trying to say. I take this statement to mean you think banning Muslims from gun ranges is okay because you've read the fucking book, and your interpretation of it says all Muslims are violent extremists? As, apparently, are Nazis (I'll give you that) and Mormons. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #70 October 1, 2014 QuoteWhat would you do in a similar business situation? What similar business situation? If I had a couple guys acting weird or unsafe? Kick them off the range. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cgriff 0 #71 October 1, 2014 StumpyThis is a good point. I strongly doubt she has banned Muslims unless she asks everyone coming in what religion they are. What she has probably banned is "people who look foreign". However I would love to be incorrect on this one. Free bacon hors d'oeuvre at the door... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #72 October 1, 2014 DanGQuoteWhat would you do in a similar business situation? What similar business situation? If I had a couple guys acting weird or unsafe? Kick them off the range. And that seems to be the situation here. The thread title that has the words "First to exclude Muslims" strongly implies that any and all Muslims would be banned from the range. Which would be both illegal and wrong IMO. The real story seems to be that she tossed a couple guys who were acting strangely, frightening other customers, and one couldn't prove citizenship. They just happened to appear to be Muslim. Which is not only her right, but her duty. If one or both had "gone Postal" and hurt or killed other people, there would be a huge outcry that she shouldn't have let them shoot. The customers that got scared and left would have told everyone about how odd those two were acting, and it would be all over the news. I volunteer as a range officer at a local shooting range, and watching out for "weirdos" is a small part of it. We don't rent guns, it's "BYO", so I don't check IDs or anything like that, but I still have to keep an eye open for potential trouble. And on the citizenship thing - The law says that non-resident aliens aren't allowed to possess firearms. There's a bit of debate as to whether that means "own" or simply "hold and shoot." I do know that there are rental ranges all over the country that cater to tourists. The ones in Hawaii do very well renting to the Japanese tourists who have seen lots of movies, but are very restricted at home. If the rules at that particular range require citizenship, then it's not out of line to deny access to those who can't prove it. But I have to admit, I'd have a hard time proving my own citizenship under normal circumstances. A driver's license isn't really enough anymore and I don't carry my passport on a regular basis."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #73 October 1, 2014 wolfriverjoeThe real story seems to be that she tossed a couple guys who were acting strangely, frightening other customers, and one couldn't prove citizenship. They just happened to appear to be Muslim. Remember, this is the internet. So in the real story the "Brunette who likes posing with AR-15s" is a dude, the "firing range" is the dude's basement, the "Muslims" were a sandwich and a Mountain Dew, and "the banning" was eating them. A dude in his basement ate a sandwich and drank a Mountain Dew, why are we all so bent out of shape? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #74 October 1, 2014 QuoteDoes she have a legal stand regarding Islam as a theocracy not a religion or, the ATF gives her authorization to refuse business with anyone with whom she is uncomfortable? First, Jakee is correct in his post #63: "religion" (as per the statute) is religion, no matter what you call it or try to re-define it as. So, the court would reject that excuse as a "pretext" for unlawful discrimination, and she'd lose. She'd also lose if she claimed that ATF authorized her to refuse business with anyone she's uncomfortable with, because that broad claim would be simply untrue. While it is sort of, let's say partially, correct that she can refuse to do business with anyone she chooses, the big exception to that is that if the reason she chooses not to do business with them is that they occupy a category that is protected by any applicable anti-discrimination laws or regulations, she'd be violating that/those law(s), so she'd lose that legal argument, too. The ATF is a division of the US Justice Department. Under any party's president or Attorney General, the ATF would never issue such a blanket authorization; and even if it did, it would be viewed by any federal court as a legal nullity if it sought to authorize non-compliance with acts of Congress prohibiting discrimination. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #75 October 1, 2014 Thank you very much for taking the time to share your opinion here. I'll readily admit, I have trouble with these types of business conflicts.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
