This cop needs to go

[mirage62 0]

Don, I believe you understood the point as well as Kallend. You rephrased it a little more PC but it still stands.

Kallend as far as judge and jury, I'm sure if you read the reports you'd agree that X% were justified.

John I hope you can tell me stories of how you handled the bad guys back in your days as an officer

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[GeorgiaDon 355]

Quote

Don, I believe you understood the point as well as Kallend.

Do you understand the difference between "deserved to be killed" and "the cops had no other choice"?

I realize that most people will use the two interchangeably. The issue that I have with that is that language shapes our thoughts, just as our thoughts are reflected in our language. Much of our ability to reason abstractly lies in our ability to codify abstract concepts in language. So "short-cuts" in language (using simple terms to stand in for more complex ideas) tends to lead to "short-cuts" in thought.

I agree that there are bad guys, and I agree that sometimes police have no choice but to use deadly force to protect themselves or others. "Deserved to die" is somewhat different. Does the patient suffering from paranoid delusions "deserve" to die, even if his delusions result in him acting in a threatening manner? Does the guy who reacts to cops bursting into his house by mistake (they went to the wrong address) on a no-knock warrant "deserve" to die? Does the guy walking around Walmart with an airsoft pellet gun he just picked up off the store shelf "deserve" to die, even if the police find their officers acted properly?

I'm sure, though, that "he got what he deserved" is a lot easier for many people than the more complicated "the police were left with no other alternative". The first is cut and dried. The second requires thought about the circumstances, the alternatives available at the time, the training of the police, and their state of mind at the instant a decision had to be made. Monday morning quarterbacking won't bring back the dead but it could result in a change in training or procedures that prevent future unnecessary deaths. "He deserved what he got" holds no such potential, ensuring that future confrontations will have the same outcome.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[wolfriverjoe 1,495]

GeorgiaDon

Do you understand the difference between "deserved to be killed" and "the cops had no other choice"?...

And how many times did the "cops have no other choice" due to bad technique or stupid tactical errors?

How many times have the cops put themselves into situations that ended up as shootings, but could have been easily avoided had the cops used better judgement?

The incident with the old man in his own car is pretty high on that list. The cops got too close, startled the guy, and shot him when he reacted.

The incident in the OP is also a good example. The cop told him to produce his ID, and shot him when he complied too quickly. I've mentioned in a previous post a much better way to have handled it.

I've seen a video somewhere where the cops are chasing a guy, the guy spins out and stalls the car. The cops get out and approach the car, just as the guy fires it back up. As he starts moving to escape, he heads in the general direction of the cops. They "fear for their lives" and unload into the car, killing the guy. It certainly looks like he isn't deliberately trying to run over the cops, but just to get away.
If the cops hadn't gotten out of their car, or hadn't approached the other car until they were reasonably certain that the car wasn't going to move again, the guy wouldn't have had to die.
And of course, the shooting was ruled "justifiable."

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[airdvr 205]

Quote

They "fear for their lives" and unload into the car, killing the guy. It certainly looks like he isn't deliberately trying to run over the cops, but just to get away.

I'm thinking in that case there is far more at work than "they fear for their lives". How about they are going to end this car chase before some innocent person gets killed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[wolfriverjoe 1,495]

airdvr

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They "fear for their lives" and unload into the car, killing the guy. It certainly looks like he isn't deliberately trying to run over the cops, but just to get away.

I'm thinking in that case there is far more at work than "they fear for their lives". How about they are going to end this car chase before some innocent person gets killed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Not according to what was said along with the video. It was simply that they were afraid of being run over by the car (not entirely unreasonable) as the driver was trying to escape.
If they hadn't jumped out of the cop car and run towards the suspect's car the instant the suspect's car was momentarily stopped, it probably wouldn't have ended that way. They could have stayed in their car until they were reasonably certain the suspect car was done for, or they could have stayed behind the protection of the cop car. Instead, they chose to put themselves into danger by running right at the suspect's car. If the suspect had had a gun and the willingness to use it, they would have been easy targets.
Call it the "heat of the chase" or something like that, it's a known issue for cops in high speed chases.

And I'm not aware that potential for harm down the road is a valid justification for use of lethal force. Anywhere.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[justme12001 0]

Not directed at wolfriveroe;
I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed for this but oh well......
I agree with cvfd1399. I'm not saying the cop was right, quite the opposite. The cop was in the wrong, and should probably loose his job, but I don't think he should face criminal charges.

Yes, the cop told the guy to get his ID, but wasn't expecting him to turn and "dive head first" into his car. The guy should have known to let the cop know that he had to go back in the car to retrieve his ID. Keeping your hands visible, moving slowly and letting the officer know if you have to go into the glove box should be common sense these days.

[lawrocket 3]

airdvr

Quote

They "fear for their lives" and unload into the car, killing the guy. It certainly looks like he isn't deliberately trying to run over the cops, but just to get away.

I'm thinking in that case there is far more at work than "they fear for their lives". How about they are going to end this car chase before some innocent person gets killed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

What about when the innocent person gets killed? Like what happened a couple of months ago in Stockton. Remember? Bank robbers took three women hostage. One gets wounded and dumped off. A second gets wounded and dumped off. Then the cops get serious and spray the car, which killed the remaining hostage and two robbers.

The police were of the opinion that they had no choice but to just kill everyone. Sure, there was an innocent mother in there and she got ventilated with ten bullets - all from police guns. Were the police just trying to prevent the loss of innocent lives by killing the hostage, too?

This is what worries me. That we have as much to fear from law enforcement as from criminals. Check out how many officer-involved shootings occur each year. And how few involve police getting shot. I think it's troubling.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[1888 0]

Ya know there are a lot of hero's posting here. Most don't seem to realize that whenever a cop stops a car he has no idea who is inside or what he will do.
A traffic cop may do this 10-20 times per shift. The cop really just wants to get home for dinner with the wife & kids. He really doesn't want to shoot someone, go through all the paperwork, the investigation that follows and the thoughts/remorse that will follow him the rest of his days as he tries to justify his actions to himself. Maybe some of you should remember that old saying about walking a mile in the other guys boots. Calling this cop an asshole etc. just shows your own ignorance and/or bias. He made a mistake & he's paying for it.
Oh by the way I was a road Trooper for 20 years and never drew my weapon on a traffic stop, something I am thankful for every day. I was always alert and had the shit kicked out of me a bit and did some shit kicking as well. So you assholes who are quick to tag someone else with that handle, may now go back to your safe job in an office, cubicle, McDonald's etc. a bit safer in your communities because of that cop who is out there at 0300 patrolling your streets.

[AndyBoyd 0]

Would you have shot this guy in that situation? I get what you are saying. Just asking a question.

[1888 0]

I don't know. Likely not but if I was wrong .....

[kallend 1,929]

1888

I don't know. Likely not but if I was wrong .....

Becoming more like the OK Corral every day.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airdvr 205]

1888

I don't know. Likely not but if I was wrong .....

I guess that really is what it gets down to then. As an LEO you have to accept the 'what if I was wrong' scenario and take one for the team. Err on the side of the person you are interacting with. One day you might be wrong and you'll be shot or stabbed or whatever.

Let's take the video scenario; the LEO has the upper hand. He's already drawn his gun. It will be difficult at best for the victim to get a shot off and certainly difficult for the victim to be accurate. The officer had him and just freaked out. Got a case of the willies. Call it whatever you like. I feel bad for him. His life is over...ruined.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[DanG 1]

Quote

I feel bad for him. His life is over...ruined.

Hopefully you also feel bad for the other guy. His life is over...literally.

- Dan G

[airdvr 205]

DanG

Quote

I feel bad for him. His life is over...ruined.

Hopefully you also feel bad for the other guy. His life is over...literally.

I am the OP...what do you think?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[DanG 1]

Obviously you do. I should have made it impersonal. I should have said, "Hopefully, all posters here also feel bad for the other guy..."

My apologies.

- Dan G

[normiss 757]

Wasn't he just shot in the hip?

[craddock 0]

DanG

Hopefully you also feel bad for the other guy. His life is over...literally.

? It didn't sound life threatening to me? Be interesting to see what happens to that cop in Kentucky that killed the teen girl leaving the party this spring. Way to much of this going on

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[lawrocket 3]

Do cops ever put themselves in the boots of a suspect? Cops frequently want others to alk in their boots. But it's a two way street.

It's already accepted by the vast majority of people that cops live in fear of the public every day, and for damned good reason. Right now the issue is becoming the failure of the police to accept that the public now also lives in fear of the police.

I see the LEOs and others who just cannot see why anybody who isn't a bad guy would fear the police. Mutual mistrust is a pretty difficult thing.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,929]

lawrocket

Do cops ever put themselves in the boots of a suspect? Cops frequently want others to alk in their boots. But it's a two way street.

It's already accepted by the vast majority of people that cops live in fear of the public every day, and for damned good reason. Right now the issue is becoming the failure of the police to accept that the public now also lives in fear of the police.

I see the LEOs and others who just cannot see why anybody who isn't a bad guy would fear the police. Mutual mistrust is a pretty difficult thing.

Those who advocate for universal gun ownership must see that this is an inevitable outcome. If I were an LEO in the USA I would certainly have to assume that anyone I approach is armed. That is generally not the case in other western nations.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DanG 1]

Quote

Wasn't he just shot in the hip?

Oops. Mixed up my cop-shooting-innocent-people stories.

I'm fucking up left and right today.

- Dan G

[normiss 757]

It's Monday. Meh.

[craddock 0]

kallend

Those who advocate for universal gun ownership must see that this is an inevitable outcome. If I were an LEO in the USA I would certainly have to assume that anyone I approach is armed. That is generally not the case in other western nations.

Inevitable outcome? I have no issue with the LEO assuming everyone is armed but if they can't handle that maybe they need a different line of work. DNR wardens during hunting season can almost be assured anyone they approach will be armed. Hell the weapon is usually in there hands. They don't approach blazing.

If being around armed people makes you that nervous you are clearly in the wrong field. In my travels I have been around people carrying openly(including LEOs as well as those expressing there rights, and have noticed people "printing" their Concealed weapon through poor clothing choices for CCW. I worry more about how my Sandwich or Dinner is going to taste than worrying about a Cop or CCW holder in the same restaurant.

Sorry you are so afraid of guns

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[normiss 757]

Precisely.

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]Those who advocate for universal gun ownership must see that this is an inevitable outcome.

[kallend 1,929]

I think is sad that those who choose to go around unarmed are having to modify their behavior to avoid getting shot or tazed on account of LEOs' assumption that everyone IS armed.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.