billvon 2,391 #126 September 9, 2014 >So, there are only two options? They're ALL coverups, or they're ALL legit? >Bullshit. No one here believes that But claiming that's the case allows for so much righteous indignation! Such strawmen arguments are common 'round these parts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #127 September 9, 2014 What part of the words MOST SHOOTINGS did you not understand?? Who the hell but you is saying ALL?? Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #128 September 9, 2014 QuoteWhat part of the words MOST SHOOTINGS did you not understand?? Who the hell but you is saying ALL?? Who the hell but you is saying MOST? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #129 September 10, 2014 Normiss on cops investigating their own shootings. QuoteWell, when your buddies and coworkers do the investigation as to whether it was justified or not, can you really trust the numbers? QuoteSurely the police do an investigation when ever there is a police shooting. Wait a second..... Sounds like some cop shops have needed federal oversight for some time. I don't have the time to search all his posts, if you don't believe me, go back and read all of his history and gather for yourself. The guy doesn't trust police to investigate shootings, and will post data like 400 people MURDERED by cops to infuriate people, but once you challenge him on the data he spouts the same bullshit about justification, and that fellow cops let them off the hook of a murder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,622 #130 September 10, 2014 cvfd1399Normiss on cops investigating their own shootings. QuoteWell, when your buddies and coworkers do the investigation as to whether it was justified or not, can you really trust the numbers? ***Surely the police do an investigation when ever there is a police shooting. Wait a second..... Sounds like some cop shops have needed federal oversight for some time. I don't have the time to search all his posts, if you don't believe me, go back and read all of his history and gather for yourself. The guy doesn't trust police to investigate shootings, and will post data like 400 people MURDERED by cops to infuriate people, but once you challenge him on the data he spouts the same bullshit about justification, and that fellow cops let them off. So who watches the watchers? The police need to be ABOVE suspicion. They aren't as long as they get to investigate themselves.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #131 September 10, 2014 Every department I have ever heard of had another department other than themselves do the investigation. Here usually the state police will step in and do it. I agree that there needs to be an independent review by someone else higher up and not influenced by that department. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #132 September 10, 2014 kallendwww.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/chi-video-leads-city-to-settle-tanning-salon-raid-case-for-150000-20140908-story.html I think its hilarious that someone from Chicago is concerned about a raid. Here's a link for you. http://heyjackass.com/Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #133 September 10, 2014 cvfd1399Every department I have ever heard of had another department other than themselves do the investigation. Here usually the state police will step in and do it. I agree that there needs to be an independent review by someone else higher up and not influenced by that department. .................................................................... Agreed Most police shootings in Canada are investigated by police from another city. Sometimes those shootings are investigated by provincial police or the RCMP. The most visible police shootings include coroner's investigations and public testimony. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #134 September 10, 2014 airdvr***www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/chi-video-leads-city-to-settle-tanning-salon-raid-case-for-150000-20140908-story.html I think its hilarious that someone from Chicago is concerned about a raid. Here's a link for you. http://heyjackass.com/ Love the comments... Hey did you know they have a lot of negroes living in Chicago... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cgriff 0 #135 September 10, 2014 DanGQuoteWhat part of the words MOST SHOOTINGS did you not understand?? Who the hell but you is saying ALL?? Who the hell but you is saying MOST? So, it would appear we've agreed it's not all, and not even most... Now the question is, can the other side agree that one is too many? Take, for example, Milton Olin: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2736376/Deputy-killed-former-Napster-COO-drifting-bike-lane-distracted-laptop-NOT-face-charges-answering-work-related-email.html http://www.scribd.com/doc/237940150/Official-document-Deputy-won-t-be-charged-in-death-of-Calabasas-bicyclist-Milton-Olin Does anyone have any doubts that any non-leo would be up on charges after running someone down while texting? I'm all for a separate standard for leos but it should be a higher standard, not a get away with whatever you want standard. We get enough of that BS from the Feds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #136 September 10, 2014 Agreed. Not cure where that 95% number came from! :D I won't apologize for being concerned about even one life. On either side for that matter. The us vs. them view won't see it that way though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #137 September 10, 2014 QuoteThe real issue here boils down to those few bad apples who DO wrong, and face no consequences for it. Once I see the rest of the boys in blue up in arms about those cases too, then I'll believe that the majority of them have my best interest at heart. To protect and serve includes protecting the populace from your brethren, whether it's graft, negligence or just sheer incompetence that's causing the problem in the first place A good apple that allows a rotten apple to stay in the barrel quickly becomes rotten as well. A good cop that allows and enables a bad cop IS a bad cop. That's my opinion. It's not subject to change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycop 0 #138 September 10, 2014 QuoteThe police can back off all they want. Where I live, the proximal separation between houses in rural areas is significant and the size of the police force is not big enough to cover the whole county and respond. IT'S WHY we're all armed to the teeth and the bad guys know it...they stay away lest they wish to be made an example of. Thank you Captain Obvious.......... QuoteThe memories do fade a little but I can remember some street fights I got into as a street urchin and I rolled around. Yea it's not fun even when your a kid. And yes in that case it clearly is you or the perp. then again, you signed up for the work, nobody forced your hand on the employment contract. I love that statement itself, people who make that statement have neither the temperament or the fortitude to do this job. Many assumptions people make about LEO's just aren't true, I hear them everyday. I knew fully what I was getting into, but that doesn't mean I have to be at a disadvantage, just for the sake of being at a disadvantage. I carried a PR-24 baton for over 20yrs, I used it twice. Guess how many speeding tickets I've written.....................wait for it..............zero, zip, none, zerouski. I worked in the inner-city the vast majority of my career, I've made HUNDREDS, probably well over a thousand (I don't keep track) physical arrests. Not traffic, criminal stuff ranging from alcohol intoxication to murder. I've been punched, kicked, spit-on, suffered broken bones, dislocations, cuts bruises. I've also had people try to take my gun during a fight, been shot at, and one guy tried to ambush us/me after he killed his family. I don't want sympathy, I started this thread to see what people thought. I'm only one guy who worked in a medium sized PD. There are hundreds of thousands of guys just like me. Guys who want to do a good job, obey the rules, and go home. I know I'm not going to win some of you over, never expected to. I've tried to provide information to help make an informed decision. If you just sit back and bitch you are part of the problem, not the solution. Now, I'm gonna sit back and watch the flames........... "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #139 September 10, 2014 BartsDaddyI have hesitated to enter this disscusion. My input doesn't pertain to the militarazation but the us vs them. I can come up with a few but the one that shows it best is. Me and my friend at 21 or 22 years old. Back in 1984 I believe. We were doing something we were completely in the wrong doing. But I was a bored country boy in the city no squrels to shot so we take a pellet gun and went cat hunting. Yes I know it was wrong this was long ago I would not do it now. With that said back to the story. After about a half hour of going through the housing tract. We wound up back next to my moms house where I lived at the time, just as a police cruiser passed us the other way. We were just coming up to the curb parking and my friend Gary driving said they are flipping around. So once he stopped I exited the vehicle while throwing my open container under his car hoping it would not be seen. Well they never said anything of the beer. But 2 seconds after I got out of that car a policeman with a twelve gauge was telling me to get down. After I did he proceeded to come up and aim at the back of of my head for about 15 minutes. While the other policeman was talking to and covering Gary with a 1911. About 5 minutes into it Gary was pronged out on the otherwise of the vehicle. This went on for awhile while they were saying they had reports of a shooter shooting at kids. Even though two minutes into the stop they knew it was a pellet gun. Up to this point I don't like what is happening but it is my fault. At this point Gary ask the cop if he knows Sergeant Joe Smith. Who happened to be 5 years retired from the same city. Gary then tells.him he is Joe Smiths son. Those two officers attitude changed imediatly. The one holstered his 1911 and helped Gary up. The other one even played his shotgun on the ground and helped me up and brushed the grass of the front of me. That has never happened before. They gave a lecture confiscated the pellet gun and said have a nice night. That is basicly where my involvement ends but 20 minutes later when we were standing in front of my house Gary's dad showed up walked across the grassknocked garyGary on his ass said get in the truck. Turned to me and my mom. Said sorry and left. It is amazing as to what one name drop will do to keep you from going to jail. When that name is a cop. .................................................................. You missed the lesson. As soon as your buddy dropped a name, those constables switched from "new school" policing to "old school" policing. Your buddy's (retired cop) father probably laid a worse beating on him than he would have gotten in the drunk tank. No question that your buddy deserved a beating for something as stupid as shooting cats, the only difference is whether the beating was administered by police, drunks or his father. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,622 #140 September 10, 2014 airdvr***www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/chi-video-leads-city-to-settle-tanning-salon-raid-case-for-150000-20140908-story.html I think its hilarious that someone from Chicago is concerned about a raid. Here's a link for you. http://heyjackass.com/ Indeed. It places Chicago at #21 in murder rates in American cities. Behind such places as Memphis, Orlando, Miami, Baltimore, New Orleans, St. Louis, Birmingham, Flint, and Richmond.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #141 September 10, 2014 kallend******www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/chi-video-leads-city-to-settle-tanning-salon-raid-case-for-150000-20140908-story.html I think its hilarious that someone from Chicago is concerned about a raid. Here's a link for you. http://heyjackass.com/ Indeed. It places Chicago at #21 in murder rates in American cities. Behind such places as Memphis, Orlando, Miami, Baltimore, New Orleans, St. Louis, Birmingham, Flint, and Richmond. I guess you needn't worry about it then. But those raids that go wrong...now there's a problem that needs looked into.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,391 #142 September 10, 2014 >I guess you needn't worry about it then. But those raids that go wrong...now >there's a problem that needs looked into. Yes, it is. When cops regularly shoot unarmed and innocent people - that is definitely a problem that needs to be looked into. Fortunately it _usually_ is, but there have been some very glaring exceptions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycop 0 #143 September 10, 2014 Hot off the press....... http://uniformstories.com/stories/police/the-truth-about-america-s-militarized-police-program Same guy I quoted in the first post here. The things we are working on getting from the 1033/LESO: 3 small off the shelf hand held Honda generators 2 packs of tourniquets (for our first aid kits) Some "Flyers Kit Bags", for those who have never used one, they are great for carrying about anything, and would make great trunk organizers. A couple spare HMMWV windows, for bench stock A hand held thermal imager, one we could never afford and has numerous applications for police and fire/rescue. 2 ATV's That is the meat of the program, 95% of the gear is non-weapon or tactical vehicle related. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,391 #144 September 11, 2014 >That is an excellent point.. When you dress people a certain way, or give them >certain job titles, they tend to act a certain way even if that is not their function. Agreed. And when recruitment videos show cops doing things that are more appropriate in Afghanistan than in Duluth . . . you attract people who want to do all those things. And your culture moves from community service to "get them before they get you." A good article on this: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323848804578608040780519904 =============== What would it take to dial back such excessive police measures? The obvious place to start would be ending the federal grants that encourage police forces to acquire gear that is more appropriate for the battlefield. Beyond that, it is crucial to change the culture of militarization in American law enforcement. Consider today's police recruitment videos (widely available on YouTube), which often feature cops rappelling from helicopters, shooting big guns, kicking down doors and tackling suspects. Such campaigns embody an American policing culture that has become too isolated, confrontational and militaristic, and they tend to attract recruits for the wrong reasons. If you browse online police discussion boards, or chat with younger cops today, you will often encounter some version of the phrase, "Whatever I need to do to get home safe." It is a sentiment that suggests that every interaction with a citizen may be the officer's last. Nor does it help when political leaders lend support to this militaristic self-image, as New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg did in 2011 by declaring, "I have my own army in the NYPD—the seventh largest army in the world." The motivation of the average American cop should not focus on just making it to the end of his shift. The LAPD may have given us the first SWAT team, but its motto is still exactly the right ideal for American police officers: To protect and serve. SWAT teams have their place, of course, but they should be saved for those relatively rare situations when police-initiated violence is the only hope to prevent the loss of life. They certainly have no place as modern-day vice squads. Many longtime and retired law-enforcement officers have told me of their worry that the trend toward militarization is too far gone. Those who think there is still a chance at reform tend to embrace the idea of community policing, an approach that depends more on civil society than on brute force. In this very different view of policing, cops walk beats, interact with citizens and consider themselves part of the neighborhoods they patrol—and therefore have a stake in those communities. It's all about a baton-twirling "Officer Friendly" rather than a Taser-toting RoboCop. ========================= Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #145 September 11, 2014 billvonIf you browse online police discussion boards, or chat with younger cops today, you will often encounter some version of the phrase, "Whatever I need to do to get home safe." It is a sentiment that suggests that every interaction with a citizen may be the officer's last. I wonder if the wives and children of cops are in agreement with an attitude of having their husbands walk up with an open hand held out to shake to an angry young shuffling man with his hands hidden in his pockets.... What is, exactly, wrong with wanting to get home safe from any job? QuoteIn this very different view of policing, cops walk beats, interact with citizens and consider themselves part of the neighborhoods they patrol—and therefore have a stake in those communities. It's all about a baton-twirling "Officer Friendly" rather than a Taser-toting RoboCop. and yet you people make fun of the stereotype of "Mayberry".....strange - cops that know all the citizens and mostly don't need to ever be armed or anything else and deal respectfully with individuals as friends. Maybe instead of mocking a Barney Fife or Sheriff Andy stereotype, people might instead take it as a good example. Of course, for the police to act like those guys, it helps to have a citizenry that also acts like small town basically decent people... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycop 0 #146 September 11, 2014 As I've said before, Radley Balko is not an objective source of information. QuoteConsider today's police recruitment videos (widely available on YouTube), which often feature cops rappelling from helicopters, shooting big guns, kicking down doors and tackling suspects. Such campaigns embody an American policing culture that has become too isolated, confrontational and militaristic, and they tend to attract recruits for the wrong reasons. Because video of writing reports, driving around, dealing with drunks, writing tickets etc. is great for recruitment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GNp-ZB9Qmo QuoteMany longtime and retired law-enforcement officers have told me of their worry that the trend toward militarization is too far gone. Those who think there is still a chance at reform tend to embrace the idea of community policing, an approach that depends more on civil society than on brute force. I hate to break it to you Mr. Balko, but Community Policing is alive and well, I've been doing it for almost 30yrs, and EVERY department I work with does it as well. This is the equivalent of Mr. Balko opining on race relations by starting out "I have a black friend and.........." I will say as policing has increased pay and educational requirements, some younger officers do not live in the areas they police, especially urban areas. Many officers work in the city but live in the 'burbs. Many do work, live, shop, in the communities. Cops are some of the most engaged people in their communities, they are coaches, youth pastors, mentors, scout leaders, and the list goes on. These issues come down to leadership, is the leadership encouraging and rewarding community involvement, if not, they should be. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #147 September 11, 2014 Quoteand yet you people make fun of the stereotype of "Mayberry".. Who does that? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,391 #148 September 11, 2014 >What is, exactly, wrong with wanting to get home safe from any job? In and of itself, nothing. If it means you do a poor job as a result, then that is a problem. In this case, if it means you treat every encounter as an encounter with a cop killer, you're going to have a very big problem with the local populace - and you won't be able to effectively do your job. Fortunately most cops I know don't have that problem. They mostly still get home safe. > Maybe instead of mocking a Barney Fife or Sheriff Andy stereotype, people might >instead take it as a good example. I think people mocked Barney Fife because he was written into the show to be mocked . . . >Of course, for the police to act like those guys, it helps to have a citizenry that >also acts like small town basically decent people... Exactly. And if cops treat everyone like cop killers, they will see the same sort of fear and aggression returned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #149 September 11, 2014 billvonExactly. And if cops treat everyone like cop killers, they will see the same sort of fear and aggression returned. and if everyone treats all cops like bad cops...... what you are saying here is if the overall situation is to change, both factions need to stop treating the entire world as if it's composed of the worst of the worst. I don't see that happening just based on the bias I see in this thread, let alone in the real world the problem with trying to treat everyone with the best of expectations.....the worst of us will take advantage and you lose enough hope and stop trying....example - Normiss doesn't trust any cop......cops have to be cautious even with simple traffic stops.....Jeanne just keeps being jeanne....etcetcetc ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycop 0 #150 September 11, 2014 Medical mistakes kill lots of people, yet it doesn't damn the entire profession. Two experienced pilots stall a perfectly good airplane and kill hundreds, no one says it's all the "bad pilots" giving the "good pilots" a bad name. It's all relative, I've tried to explain ad nauseam about the number of police contacts daily in the US vs. complaints or controversy. The internet and 24 hour news cycle has made everyone self appointed experts. The police are the most visible form of government, and let's face it, most people aren't too hip on the government right now (including me). Paying taxes, reading the internet, watching youtube, or listening to the myriad of talking heads does not make you an expert. I suggest if it is so easy, by all means, put on the belt and funny outfit, and have at it.................then see what you'd say. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PIvuPz_KJw "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
