"Militarization" of the police

[skycop 0]

It's been a while since I've posted here, I've been reading some of the threads and thought this would be good reading for some.
Read up on Columbine, the tactics used simply weren't up to the challenge, plain and simple. There have been many others, to numerous to list, but they also were factors in major changes that require more "military" type tactics.
This article sums up the feelings of myself and most cops I know. I've been on the operational side of this for pushing 30yrs.

http://www.uniformstories.com/the-militarization-of-the-american-police-department

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[skydiver30960 0]

I'm sure this is posted elsewhere, but went looking for the quote and this is the first place it popped up...

http://thesheepdog.com/


"The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog that intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land."

There will be sheepdogs that will abuse their power. The answer lies in punishing those sheepdogs, not denying the need for them.

Elvisio "trying to be a sheepdog in my own little way" Rodriguez

[wmw999 2,376]

The problem is that it seems that the standard for sheepdogs is innocent until proven guilty, and the standard for sheep is guilty until proven innocent

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Stumpy 284]

Also - are there situations where these sorts of tactics are required? Probably.

Are they required to be used at the sort of level and frequency they are used now? Probably not. When the standard response more and more frequently involves a swat team, or full riot gear, or whatever, then you have already lost.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[skycop 0]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=687894971303123
A recent example, this is in Canada, where they have much stricter gun control.
These shots fired type calls happen (unfortunately) monthly in the US.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[quade 4]

With regards to the "sheepdog" analogy. I'm sure it makes certain people feel good about the jobs they do, but it's both tired and inaccurate. It is a more poorly written version of the Jack Nicholson, "You can't handle the truth" speech in "A Few Good Men." What it really does is to show the world how delusional the person is about the realities of their position.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skycop 0]

Dave Grossman actually started the whole sheep vs. sheepdog thing many years ago.
Cops understand the concept, some non-cops find it demeaning.

The warrior mentality has a place in modern police work, the only problem is many don't understand it.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[cvfd1399 0]

Also it is really hardly used, but since it's the hot topic in the news and on people's mind, any use of CRT/SRT(swat) especially if it goes bad gets plenty of coverage. The guys here in Baton Rouge only get called up once or twice a week, hardly an everyday operation by all police in the states every day as the sheep will have you believe.

[skycop 0]

We got called out 1-2 a month when I was a SWAT guy back in the late 80's to late 90's. The team is seldom called out anymore, mainly due to budget constraints and manpower issues.
The internet has made everyone a tactical expert, I can debunk about 99% of the drivel both extremes put out.
The link I put in the original post expresses better than I can.
"Militarization" is something everyone should be concerned about in their communities.
What is being put out post-Ferguson is mainly hype to attract attention and to sell ad space.
I've also been involved with the 1033 program since the mid-90's. The vast majority of information put out by the media about this program is mis-information or factually incorrect.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[riggerrob 624]

***Dave Grossman actually started the whole sheep vs. sheepdog thing many years ago.
...........................................................................

When policemen grow up (graduate to the next lifetime?) do they become Bouvier de Flandres or perhaps Great Pyrennes sheep dogs????????

[riggerrob 624]

***We got called out 1-2 a month when I was a SWAT guy back in the late 80's to late 90's. The team is seldom called out anymore, mainly due to budget constraints and manpower issues.

............................................................................................

Agreed
The incidence of violent crimes (amateur snipers, school massacres, riots, etc.) has not changed significantly.
The difference is that now SWAT Teams are increasingly used to serve "high risk" warrants on drug dealers, meth labs, etc. Police now use the 'war on drugs' to justify militarized SWAT Teams.
Police now rarely face fire arms except in the hands of drug dealers.

[1888 0]

skycop

It's been a while since I've posted here, I've been reading some of the threads and thought this would be good reading for some.
Read up on Columbine, the tactics used simply weren't up to the challenge, plain and simple. There have been many others, to numerous to list, but they also were factors in major changes that require more "military" type tactics.
This article sums up the feelings of myself and most cops I know. I've been on the operational side of this for pushing 30yrs.

http://www.uniformstories.com/the-militarization-of-the-american-police-department

Written by the Chief of Brumfield, OH, population 3,343 (2010)

[lawrocket 3]

From the article:
[Quote]Police leaders and officers have increased the level of their equipment in direct correlation with the times and threats we face.

Problem is, the police are not directly correlating their equipment with the threats. "No knock warrants" - being used for everything. Got someone operating a daycare without a license? One would expect there to be a no know warrant with SWAT, etc.

Sure, the police were outmatched in North Hollywood. We haven't seen a North Hollywood-type incident since then. Good news: the police are training for such circumstances. Bad news: by practicing ith low-level offenders with lo-level offenses.

Understandably, we want the local police to be trained and adept with flash-bang grenades, clearing a house, and eliminating potentially deadly threats. Training for it with raids on people seeling raw milk leads to the perception of the militarized police treating citizens like enemy combatants.

Youtube has also been brilliant for this. Police violating Constitutional rights are all over it. Right down to police seizing cell phones, arresting them and swearing out violations of wiretap laws.

Yes, the police are responding to perceived threats. The public is responding to the police response, which does not seems to involve any degree of flexible response. Yes, cops are worried about protecting themselves from the public. And thus don't trust the public, which is shown in their actions.

It's not sheepdog, anymore. The sheepdog doesn't spend its time protecting itself from the sheep. It's more like the lion and the pack of hyenas. They'll usually leave each other alone, but the lion has to fuck up a hyena every now and then to demonstrate its dominance.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[turtlespeed 212]

wmw999

The problem is that it seems that the standard for sheepdogs is innocent until proven guilty, and the standard for sheep is guilty until proven innocent

Wendy P.

At what time did it flip flop?

When did a white gunned down by an ethnic person trump the cards?

Sheep? I guess they are white . . . sheep dogs . . . ?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,376]

Quote

When did a white gunned down by an ethnic person trump the cards?

Are you fucking kidding me???

How about any time well into the 1970s in many places??? There were about 100+ years to (ahem) "forgive and forget." And in that case it was the law and the powers-that-be who we're enforcing the status quo.

There were exceptions of course, just as there are now. And in both cases the exceptions were what you read about in the news.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[normiss 757]

Why is it a battle?
When did cops become the military against the civilians?
This will become a war if cops continue this attitude.
This whole "us vs them" mentality has got to stop.

You are creating fear. Which I suspect is the goal.
I'm glad to know there are more and more sheep unwilling to submit.
We deserve better.

[base698 12]

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/%E2%80%9Cwhy_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/

Being prepared for Columbine is a bad reason to be raiding low level crimes. A home poker game I went to in college was raided with a swat team and helicopters. Another game was robbed in the past so some of the people that were playing were on edge and carrying guns. Can you imagine what would have happened if they fired on the people busting down the door?

[champu 1]

A law enforcement officer shooting/killing an unarmed person due to misevaluation of a situation is worse than a law enforcement officer being shot/killed due to misevaluation of a situation. They are both bad, but the former is worse. The former is supposed to be worse to the point that the job of being a law enforcement officer is one that people reverence.

When this is forgotten as rules of engagement are defined and/or inquiries into a police shooting are conducted you replace the reverence with mistrust.

[skycop 0]

Quote

Radley Balko is an award-winning investigative journalist who writes about civil liberties, police and prosecutors, and the broader criminal justice system. He is currently a senior writer and investigative reporter for the Huffington Post.

Salon.com, Radley Balko, and the Huffington Post are hardly objective sources.
Cherry picking raids, actions, or whatever you want to call them proves nothing.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[lawrocket 3]

Yeah. There was the guy in Texas who killed a cop and wounded a couple of others during a no-knock raid. The grand jury didn't indict him because he thought they were home-invasion robbers and acted in subjectively reasonable self defense.

Used to be that killing an on-duty cop was pretty much a life sentence. Automatically. Now you've got on-duty cops getting killed and shot and indictments being refused because the cops are being mistaken for home invasion robbers.

How does the police force defens this? Like yes, a poker game being raided. There is no alleged crime so small that SWAT won't be called. There might be someone doing a manicure whose license expired at the stripmall beauty salon.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]Cherry picking raids, actions, or whatever you want to call them proves nothing

[base698 12]

My friends were there at the game mentioned in Cary, and I'd been to that game before.

Anecdotal yes, but I just can't imagine any world where raiding a home poker game with a SWAT team is a good idea.

[kallend 1,929]

cvfd1399

The guys here in Baton Rouge only get called up once or twice a week, hardly an everyday operation by all police in the states every day as the sheep will have you believe.

Once or twice A WEEK? In one fairly small city?

Seems over the top to me.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skycop 0]

Quote

Problem is, the police are not directly correlating their equipment with the threats. "No knock warrants" - being used for everything. Got someone operating a daycare without a license? One would expect there to be a no know warrant with SWAT, etc

A broad generalization that simply isn't true

Quote

Sure, the police were outmatched in North Hollywood. We haven't seen a North Hollywood-type incident since then. Good news: the police are training for such circumstances. Bad news: by practicing ith low-level offenders with lo-level offenses

Again wrong, google active shooter incidents and school shooting incidents. The list is many and varied........

Quote

Understandably, we want the local police to be trained and adept with flash-bang grenades, clearing a house, and eliminating potentially deadly threats. Training for it with raids on people seeling raw milk leads to the perception of the militarized police treating citizens like enemy combatants.

Hyperbole...............

Quote

Youtube has also been brilliant for this. Police violating Constitutional rights are all over it. Right down to police seizing cell phones, arresting them and swearing out violations of wiretap laws.

You mean videos of guys trolling around antagonizing cops while they are doing their jobs. This is all the rage in the anti-police community. If anything it proves we don't live in a "police state". In some countries I've visited the cops would just smack you over the head and drag you to jail. Don't get me wrong, some cops fall right into the trap of these guys. I've always policed as if I was being videoed. I've had some of these guys try to provoke me, I normally just laugh and ignore them.
I've taken the Oath to the Constitution more than 99.9% of the population, on both the police and military side.
Many of these "activists" lack the fortitude or demeanor to do either.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[skycop 0]

Quote

My friends were there at the game mentioned in Cary, and I'd been to that game before.

Anecdotal yes, but I just can't imagine any world where raiding a home poker game with a SWAT team is a good idea.

The last high stakes game I raided (not a SWAT raid) had prostitutes and cocaine. It was a long time ago but the anecdotal can go both ways...............

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"