Zep 0 #1 August 29, 2014 I'm not a betting person, but if I was I'd bet that the Ukraine's hopes of joining Nato is scuppered by the very countries that preach freedom and democracy for all. Seem's to me that the Ukraine going to parliament to out from being a non block country to ask for membership to Nato is a real cry for help. Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #2 August 29, 2014 Can you offer us any examples of countries being admitted to NATO when they are already at war? Membership in NATO is supposed to be a deterrent to would-be aggressors, as they would have to take into consideration that an attack on one member would be an attack on all of them. Membership after you are already at war, solely to force other countries to back you up, is not how it works. As it is, unfortunately for the Ukraine the rest of the world is free to apply a cost-benefit analysis to the situation. What is the cost of committing supplies, intelligence, or troops to the Ukraine, and what is the risk, and what is the risk involved in allowing Russia to essentially annex much of the country? I think Europe should take the lead, as Europe is most at risk from Russian expansionism, but on the other hand Europe has allowed itself to become dependent on Russian energy supplies. I see little reason to suspect that Russia poses a direct threat to North America, and so little benefit (but lots of risk) to the US providing more than equipment and information. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arvoitus 1 #3 August 29, 2014 Ukraine trying to join the NATO is like a skydiver trying to buy health insurance after they femured themselves into the ground. Not happening.Your rights end where my feelings begin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #4 August 29, 2014 As far as i know the Ukraine isn't at war with anyone, it has a civil problem on it's Russian borders. So in your opinion NATO should only allow to join/protect countries that are a direct threat to the US Nice. . Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #5 August 29, 2014 QuoteSo in your opinion NATO should only allow to join/protect countries that are a direct threat to the US Nice. I didn't say that, or anything close to that. I can't imagine why you would say such a thing unless you have some sort of a pre-conceived agenda or a serious problem comprehending written English. QuoteAs far as i know the Ukraine isn't at war with anyone, it has a civil problem on it's Russian borders. If you are convinced that Russia is not a major (or the major) instigator of the conflict in the Ukraine I don't know what planet you're living on. Even if we were to accept your premise that the Ukraine is having a "civil problem" that just happens to be on it's Russian borders by some strange coincidence, it remains to be demonstrated what would be the advantage to NATO of admitting as a member a country undergoing a civil war. How would that country be able to meet it's obligations as a member to contribute forces to the collective defense of all NATO members? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,381 #6 August 29, 2014 Zep As far as i know the Ukraine isn't at war with anyone, it has a civil problem on it's Russian borders. Normally, when one country sends troops and arms into another country and is shooting at that country's army, we call that "war"."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #7 August 30, 2014 ryoder*** As far as i know the Ukraine isn't at war with anyone, it has a civil problem on it's Russian borders. Normally, when one country sends troops and arms into another country and is shooting at that country's army, we call that "war". or at least a UN peacekeeping action. Or a liberation. At the very least we'll call it conflict. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #8 August 30, 2014 ryoder*** As far as i know the Ukraine isn't at war with anyone, it has a civil problem on it's Russian borders. Normally, when one country sends troops and arms into another country and is shooting at that country's army, we call that "war". No it's called an act of aggression. War has to be/should be declared. Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,381 #9 August 30, 2014 Zep No it's called an act of aggression. War has to be/should be declared. And how many declared wars have we had since WWII?"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #10 August 30, 2014 No, you said that. ( I see little reason to suspect that Russia poses a direct threat to North America, and so little benefit (but lots of risk) to the US providing more than equipment and information.) My interpretation of your statement is that North America or Nato shouldn't get involved as it is of no benefit to your country. You think Putin is going to stop with the Ukraine if no one stands up to him, it's what he's aiming for. He has said time and time again that he wants to rebuild the federation. (If you are convinced that Russia is not a major (or the major) instigator of the conflict in the Ukraine I don't know what planet you're living on.) Of course Russia is the instigator, they want one of the biggest bread baskets of Europe. Putin is also betting that no other alliance will stand up to him giving him a free hand to do as he will. (Even if we were to accept your premise that the Ukraine is having a "civil problem" that just happens to be on it's Russian borders by some strange coincidence, it remains to be demonstrated what would be the advantage to NATO of admitting as a member a country undergoing a civil war. How would that country be able to meet it's obligations as a member to contribute forces to the collective defense of all NATO members? ) Nato isn't only about only meeting requirements, it's about standing up to bully's. If it was only about requirements then the country I live in would of been kicked out years ago. Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nelyubin 0 #11 September 30, 2014 In Ukraine, there are units of private military companies in the USA. It is these buggers went to war in Ukraine. I think - you need uebat in the USA a couple of hundreds of missiles with multiple warheads. And oborzeli buggers. Sincerely, Nicholas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nelyubin 0 #12 September 30, 2014 Zep****** As far as i know the Ukraine isn't at war with anyone, it has a civil problem on it's Russian borders. Normally, when one country sends troops and arms into another country and is shooting at that country's army, we call that "war". No it's called an act of aggression. War has to be/should be declared. The only country in the world not to condemn fascism - USA. What else to say? You need to run in the United States about three hundred of separating nuclear warheads. Let stupid nigger Obama realizes that this is not Rosiiya miserable states . Sincerely, Nicholas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
melch 0 #13 September 30, 2014 NelyubinIn Ukraine, there are units of private military companies in the USA. It is these buggers went to war in Ukraine. I think - you need uebat in the USA a couple of hundreds of missiles with multiple warheads. And oborzeli buggers. Sincerely, Nicholas. Keep sucking down that State owned news channel narrative that Moscow has created. I would love to hear your thoughts on all of the Russian soldiers dying in 'training' exercises along the Ukraine border or the ones that are dying without any explanation to their families. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #14 September 30, 2014 Reading this thread is like watching the progression of Alzheimer's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #16 October 1, 2014 Where are my teeth? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
REDAKTOR 2 #17 October 3, 2014 melch ***In Ukraine, there are units of private military companies in the USA. It is these buggers went to war in Ukraine. I think - you need uebat in the USA a couple of hundreds of missiles with multiple warheads. And oborzeli buggers. Sincerely, Nicholas. Keep sucking down that State owned news channel narrative that Moscow has created. I would love to hear your thoughts on all of the Russian soldiers dying in 'training' exercises along the Ukraine border or the ones that are dying without any explanation to their families. This guy was recently permanently banned from the largest(and only) russian speaking skydiving forum, so thats why he is here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #18 October 3, 2014 REDAKTOR This guy was recently permanently banned from the largest(and only) russian speaking skydiving forum, so thats why he is here Just my .02 -- Do not ban him from SC or the site (unless he breaks forum rules, of course. And even then, I'd allow for language translation quirks.) For me, this is a "look behind the veil", so to speak. For him, also, IMO. Anyone here ever read "Stranger in a Strange Land". The word "grok" comes to mind. Can loosly be applied to understanding Middle Eastern and other "non-Western" cultures. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #19 October 3, 2014 muff528 Just my .02 -- Do not ban him from SC or the site (unless he breaks forum rules, of course. do we have forum rules on war crimes? He is highly entertaining at times. And confusing as hell at other times, a mix of language quirks and ranting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #20 October 3, 2014 Quotedo we have forum rules on war crimes? Yes, if you use the site to commit a war crime, you could be banned from SC for up to a month. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,121 #21 October 3, 2014 Andy9o8Quotedo we have forum rules on war crimes? Yes, if you use the site to commit a war crime, you could be banned from SC for up to a month. LMAO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #22 October 4, 2014 Andy9o8Quotedo we have forum rules on war crimes? Yes, if you use the site to commit a war crime, you could be banned from SC for up to a month. Would that include personal attacks, or just mass attacks? Is the public, that isn't even aware of this forum, if hurt, considered casualties of war crimes?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #23 October 6, 2014 turtlespeed***Quotedo we have forum rules on war crimes? Yes, if you use the site to commit a war crime, you could be banned from SC for up to a month. Would that include personal attacks, or just mass attacks? Is the public, that isn't even aware of this forum, if hurt, considered casualties of war crimes? Look, do you have genocide planned? If not, stop worrying, you're probably safe from banning. For that, at least. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #24 October 6, 2014 Andy9o8 ****** Quote do we have forum rules on war crimes? Yes, if you use the site to commit a war crime, you could be banned from SC for up to a month. Would that include personal attacks, or just mass attacks? Is the public, that isn't even aware of this forum, if hurt, considered casualties of war crimes? Look, do you have genocide planned? If not, stop worrying, you're probably safe from banning. For that, at least. Just a typical lib, fearmongering about the weather changes, and when death is at his door, aloof as can be.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nelyubin 0 #25 November 4, 2014 You pizdobol ordinary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
