Drug tests for welfare recipients

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi rehmwa,

Quote

highway or education funding comes with strings attached

It has been many years ago, but some states ( Montana comes to mind but I might be wrong ) had to raise their drinking age(s) or lose their highway benefits.

I think it's that 'no free lunch' thingy.

JerryBaumchen

PS) That commerce clause can cover a whole bunch of stuff.

[normiss 622]

We're wasting our breath.

[rehmwa 2]

kallend

" No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

It doesn't say anything about "except people with drugs in their urine".

then you do also think drug testing of military or anyone in public service is not constitutional too?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[normiss 622]

Again, being in the military sets aside most of the constitutional rights that ordinary citizens have, correct?
Public service, those with security clearances, in jobs putting everyday people at risk? We have all decided and accepted that as valid reasons to do additional testing and background checks.
When you're at the bottom of the barrel and need basic human help, why would you want to create a list to force more suffering on those people?
They aren't in the same place at all! They aren't accepting the benefit of employment, just a basic supporting level of help.
While I realize there are those that take advantage, as with everything I think.
Do you have a guess on how easy it is to falsely pass a drug screen? You cannot force a witnessed piss test without a court order. So......

[kallend 1,623]

rehmwa

***" No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

It doesn't say anything about "except people with drugs in their urine".

then you do also think drug testing of military or anyone in public service is not constitutional too?

Are they privileges?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Glitch 0]

I think it's a priviledge to live in a society that affords you the opportunity to be able to collect welfare... but I'd much rather see mandatory birth control for ALL who accept assistance rather than drug tests. You want the $, get your shot or accept govt paid for spay/neuter.

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

[rehmwa 2]

normiss

Again, being in the military sets aside most of the constitutional rights that ordinary citizens have, correct?
Public service, those with security clearances, in jobs putting everyday people at risk? We have all decided and accepted that as valid reasons to do additional testing and background checks.
When you're at the bottom of the barrel and need basic human help, why would you want to create a list to force more suffering on those people?
They aren't in the same place at all! They aren't accepting the benefit of employment, just a basic supporting level of help.
While I realize there are those that take advantage, as with everything I think.
Do you have a guess on how easy it is to falsely pass a drug screen? You cannot force a witnessed piss test without a court order. So......

Again -

No, we have not "all decided" - if drug testing is a prerequisite for the job and the employee agrees to those terms, that's the contract. A contract can be put in place for public employment, private employment, or to receive public assistance.

BTW - employment is a 'benefit'? seriously?

Terms of contracts can be anything. As long as both parties agree.

If you want income, you agree to the requirements or find it elsewhere. It doesn't matter if it's a job, or freebies. Unemployment for example requires one to come in person on a regular basis, it requires one to show proof of a job search - OMG the incredible SUFFERING.....

You guys all believe in different rules for different people. I find that continually distressing.


for me:
1 - is it a constitutional rights issue: - I don't think so, people can enter into any contract voluntarily - pre-requisites for benefits are already in place and working. The analogies to employment pre-requisites are absolutely applicable. The status of the applicant and kind sympathy for their plight is interesting but moot to the discussion.

2 - is it worth doing: - I don't think so - it's way too inefficient, costly, time consuming, and inaccurate. If that changes, then a reasoned discussion is worth having about pros vs cons.

you can't use #2 to make a case against #1 - it's a totally separate discussion - trying to do that is just disorganized

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

kallend

***
then you do also think drug testing of military or anyone in public service is not constitutional too?

Are they privileges?

do you always answer a question with a question?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Glitch

I think it's a priviledge to live in a society that affords you the opportunity to be able to collect welfare... but I'd much rather see mandatory birth control for ALL who accept assistance rather than drug tests. You want the $, get your shot or accept govt paid for spay/neuter.

I'll draw a line there. I think that does cross into a rights issue and the government cannot stipulate it into a contract with it's citizens.

Find me an analogy where the military, general public service or private businesses can do that.

Even if you find a private biz that can - (a private biz might have a standing actually if the the contract is voluntary though it would still be wrong (modeling agencies noting that if the model gets pregnant for a certain period then the contract would be void, etc......) ----------- but the gov? - no, hard to accept that one



I suspect a private charity could do so though - go on the pill or we won't help you......

(to the original drug testing question - actually, your post has me reevaluating my debate position on the original discussion more than Normiss' weak emotional appeals for (essentially "unequal treatment because I feel sorry for some and not others") and Kallend's snarky posts more than anything - it's turned it from a "right vs wrong vs legal" discussion and into a "where do we draw the line if we even can draw a line" discussion.....)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,623]

rehmwa

******
then you do also think drug testing of military or anyone in public service is not constitutional too?

Are they privileges?

do you always answer a question with a question?

Have you heard of Socrates?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

Glitch

I think it's a priviledge to live in a society that affords you the opportunity to be able to collect welfare...

I think assistance when needed is a privilege afforded to all citizens. And in that case the 14th Amendment should apply.

I don't think joining the military is a privilege, it is, however, an opportunity that comes with certain restrictions and constraints.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

kallend

*********
then you do also think drug testing of military or anyone in public service is not constitutional too?

Are they privileges?

do you always answer a question with a question?

Have you heard of Socrates?

wasn't he some old guy?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ryoder 1,381]

kallend

***

do you always answer a question with a question?

Have you heard of Socrates?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[airdvr 197]

rehmwa

***I think it's a priviledge to live in a society that affords you the opportunity to be able to collect welfare... but I'd much rather see mandatory birth control for ALL who accept assistance rather than drug tests. You want the $, get your shot or accept govt paid for spay/neuter.

I'll draw a line there. I think that does cross into a rights issue and the government cannot stipulate it into a contract with it's citizens.

Find me an analogy where the military, general public service or private businesses can do that.

Even if you find a private biz that can - (a private biz might have a standing actually if the the contract is voluntary though it would still be wrong (modeling agencies noting that if the model gets pregnant for a certain period then the contract would be void, etc......) ----------- but the gov? - no, hard to accept that one



I suspect a private charity could do so though - go on the pill or we won't help you......

(to the original drug testing question - actually, your post has me reevaluating my debate position on the original discussion more than Normiss' weak emotional appeals for (essentially "unequal treatment because I feel sorry for some and not others") and Kallend's snarky posts more than anything - it's turned it from a "right vs wrong vs legal" discussion and into a "where do we draw the line if we even can draw a line" discussion.....)

I guess you missed the whole Affordable Care Act thing?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Glitch 0]

Quote

I don't think joining the military is a privilege, it is, however, an opportunity that comes with certain restrictions and constraints.

I disagree.... I feel that joining the military is absolutely a priviledge. Our armed forces are voluntary, there is no draft. There is no compulsory obligation to serve.

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

[kallend 1,623]

Glitch

Quote

I don't think joining the military is a privilege, it is, however, an opportunity that comes with certain restrictions and constraints.

I disagree.... I feel that joining the military is absolutely a priviledge. Our armed forces are voluntary, there is no draft. There is no compulsory obligation to serve.

How can it be a privilege in the sense of the 14th Amendment if some people are excluded (too old, fitness issues, etc.)?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andy9o8 0]

Glitch

Quote

I don't think joining the military is a privilege, it is, however, an opportunity that comes with certain restrictions and constraints.

I disagree.... I feel that joining the military is absolutely a priviledge. Our armed forces are voluntary, there is no draft. There is no compulsory obligation to serve.

You're not a very good pedant.

[Glitch 0]

While I generally have that one covered genetically..

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

[Amazon 7]

kallend

What a complete waste of time, energy and money:

thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/08/07/3468610/tennessee-welfare-drug-test-positive/

Like I said before.. IF they want to test people on the public dole for drugs then they need to test EVERYONE getting a government check...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19/trey-radel-drug-testing_n_4305348.html


Rep. Trey Radel voted for Republican legislation that would allow states to make food stamp recipients pee in cups to prove they're not on drugs. In October, police busted the Florida Republican on a charge of cocaine possession.

“It’s really interesting it came on the heels of Republicans voting on everyone who had access to food stamps get drug tested," House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) told BuzzFeed Tuesday. "It’s like, what?”


The House over the summer approved an amendment by Rep. Richard Hudson (R-N.C.) that would let states drug test people on food stamps. The amendment passed by voice vote, meaning members' individual yeas and nays were not recorded. Radel later voted in favor of a broader food stamps bill that included Hudson's measure.





In support of his drug testing legislation, Hudson cited the many state legislatures around the country that had considered similar requirements for other means-tested programs in recent years.

"This is a clear and obvious problem in our communities as nearly 30 states have introduced legislation to drug test for welfare programs," Hudson said. "We have a moral obligation to equip the states with the tools they need to discourage the use of illegal drugs."

Most of the state legislation was authored by Republicans. Oftentimes, state Democrats responded by suggesting lawmakers should be subject to tests as well. If the government's going to make sure recipients of taxpayer-funded benefits are clean, the argument went, then why not also make sure the recipients of taxpayer salaries are clean, too?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Because do what I say, and go fuck yourself we know what's best for you is the new motto.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Amazon 7]

Anvilbrother

Because do what I say, and go fuck yourself we know what's best for you is the new motto.

Test them all... at all levels of government... you get a check that comes from taxpayers... you go pee in a bottle.

It is very common in the private sector.... Public sector needs to step up.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Every parish fire department here has a contract with occmed. They have a list of names and every Monday a random lottery is drawn and you go pee. The DPW does too,not sure about the police and the politicians.. Hahahahahaha

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Guest]

Amazon

***Because do what I say, and go fuck yourself we know what's best for you is the new motto.

Test them all... at all levels of government... you get a check that comes from taxpayers... you go pee in a bottle.

It is very common in the private sector.... Public sector needs to step up.

All the Fed govt jobs I had required the whiz quiz, contracting too.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Anvilbrother 0]

They were talking about laxing that requirement for tech guys like programmers and IT because they couldn't fill those positions due to the drug policy.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[wmw999 2,120]

Quote

They were talking about relaxing that requirement for tech guys like programmers and IT because they couldn't fill those positions due to the drug policy.

I was a tech/IT federal contractor, and I was most definitely required to pee test periodically.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)