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Darius11

Journalists Are Dodging Rockets and Online Attacks as Gaza Crumbles, by VICE

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GeorgiaDon


Instead of responding the same way they always do, given the effectiveness of Iron Dome maybe the Israelis could consider not responding to provocation from Hamas. When they respond, they legitimize Hamas (by treating them as an adversary that needs a response), and inevitably (given the population density of Gaza) they cause civilian casualties that foster anti-Israeli and pro-Hamas sentiment.
...
There is no good reason for Israel to believe that tactics that have failed for decades, meeting force with massive, overwhelming force, is not moving the situation towards any hope for lasting peace. As long as Hamas is unable to reach populated areas with their missiles, it is an option for Israel to try another tactic.



If someone is trying to kill you as a stated objective and has been attempting it for 65 years, and worse, is getting funded by nearby nations to do so....doing nothing is about the stupidest response imaginable.

And relying on the Iron Dome? That sounds like standing still in your kevlar vest, letting the bad guy continue to shoot at you with his .22 handgun. It will stop the majority of those tiny slugs, but every once in a while he's going to get in a good shot, and you're going to die from it. Don, you're basically describing Russian Roulette with a slightly bigger chamber. Surely you don't play that game at home?

I must be a salty type - I don't take well to attempts to kill me, no matter how ineffective they may be.

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If someone is trying to kill you as a stated objective and has been attempting it for 65 years, and worse, is getting funded by nearby nations to do so....doing nothing is about the stupidest response imaginable.

Well, O.K. So by now we have 65 years of experience with the stimulus/response model. Can you point out to me how this has been successful at defusing tensions in the area? Can you offer any evidence to suggest that Hamas and like-minded groups are about to change their tactics and policies, in favor of peaceful co-existence, as a result of Israeli military responses to their actions? Or, can you suggest a possible Israeli military move that would have any significant chance of destroying Hamas and the other Palestinian "resistance" groups without creating yet another generation of anti-Israel radicals?

What I see going on between the Israelis and the Palestinians looks like a self-sustaining chain reaction that will continue forever, or until there are too few people left alive to carry on the feud. I can't believe that Israel wants to carry on the next 1,000 years like this. Sooner or later Hamas, or some similar group, will move on up from 99.9% ineffective missiles to something really scarey, like biological weapons or maybe even nuclear. Somehow I can't see the current military strategy, which generates 1,000 dead Palestinians for every Israeli civilian casualty, as doing anything to defuse the likelihood of that occurring.

Where do you see this conflict going in the next 65 years?

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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[Reply]What I see going on between the Israelis and the Palestinians looks like a self-sustaining chain reaction that will continue forever, or until there are too few people left alive to carry on the feud



Yep. It'll end when Israel is destroyed. Israel won't let that happen.

[Reply]Can you offer any evidence to suggest that Hamas and like-minded groups are about to change their tactics and policies



No. The policy of "destroy Israel and the Jews" was in existence from Day One of Israel's own existence. It predated any Israeli tactic or policy except self-defense.

[Reply]you suggest a possible Israeli military move that would have any significant chance of destroying Hamas and the other Palestinian "resistance" groups without creating yet another generation of anti-Israel radicals?



Nope. Israel is left with no good options. It can either allow itself to be destroyed and its citizens exterminated or it can fight. It will only stop if Israel is destroyed. Period. That is Israel's choice: fight or be destroyed.

Since Israel's existence, it's had over 20k of its military members killed. The US has lost about 6k military members in Iraq/Afghanistan. Israel is about the size of Vancouver Island and has less than the population of NYC.

[Reply]Where do you see this conflict going in the next 65 years?



I see Israel either being alone as a Western Democracy still fighting or joined by Iran as a democracy.

But let's look at some things to put some perspective into it:
(1) Libya - fighting with itself. Qadaffi (however the hell it was spelled) gone and now a free-for-all as competing factions kill each other. Muslim on Muslim
(2) Syria - still going on. What's the death toll now? 150k? It moved into Lebanon a couple of years ago. Muslim on Muslim with secular bent
(3) Iraq - those ISIS characters (same as Syria) are kinda showing that they can't be reasoned with. Muslim on Muslim
(4) Egypt - Muslim on Muslim with a secular bent
(5) Bahrain - Muslim on Muslim
(6) Iran - Muslim on Muslim. Smacked down protests a couple years ago.
(7) Israel - Muslim vs. Jewish state. Somehow, the Israelis are expected to look around and think they'll be an exception.

The Middle East is riddled with people who hate each other. There is a country that is democratic. That is well educated. That has lo unemployment. That is generally not corrupt. That is 20% Arab. And has been under explicit threat of attack from all sides for 65 years.

People want Israel to act differently? Israel sees what is going on around it. And Hamas doesn't have any more friends.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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>Around here, we often hear families protest and complain when their criminal sons
>are shot dead by cops. You're right - they all think they're in the right and the
>cops are wrong. The cops all think they're right. Does that mean we're stuck in a
>stalemate?

In a way, yes; we still have crime and we still have people hating the cops. However, our "stalemate" does not include regularly firing rockets into civilian targets so we're OK with it. We try to fix it, of course (better enforcement, gang task forces, investigating cops who use excessive force, "breaking the cycle of violence" and all that) but it's at a level that most people find acceptable - provided it's not their families, of course.

Very few people find the "stalemate" in Israel acceptable.

> I'm not Jewish (or religious at all) - I side with them because they've been under
>attack since their post WWII formation.

I'm not Jewish either and I don't side with either one, because "picking sides" is what people have been doing for 50 years - and it has led to the violence we see now.

>I reject your fantasy and substitute in my reality.

Well, your reality is eternal violence. I prefer a better approach. It will be fantasy until we can do it, but so is almost everything worth doing.

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Isn't it more of their respective religions as opposed to "picking sides"?


That may have been a big part of the genesis of it, but it's gone on for so long that now it's just "us" vs. "them."
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Personally, I think that's the key to this endless hatred. It's quite difficult to let go of hatred when your god tells you to kill them.


In this case, as in many other cases, I think religion is just used to support a political decision that they've already made.

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Isn't it more of their respective religions as opposed to "picking sides"?
Personally, I think that's the key to this endless hatred.
It's quite difficult to let go of hatred when your god tells you to kill them



I think it's more of a teritorial dispute, rather than a religious conflict. At least (mostly) on the Israeli side.
Some do try to turn it into a religious war though...
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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GeorgiaDon

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If someone is trying to kill you as a stated objective and has been attempting it for 65 years, and worse, is getting funded by nearby nations to do so....doing nothing is about the stupidest response imaginable.

Well, O.K. So by now we have 65 years of experience with the stimulus/response model. Can you point out to me how this has been successful at defusing tensions in the area?



It's been extremely successful in keeping Israel in existence. Whereas your proposed solution of "act like Jebus" has no historical example to support it.

Since we have had fun with the cop comparisons- why do we continue to have a police force? We've been following that stimulus/response model for centuries. How successful has it been at eliminating crime? Surely it's time to try another approach.

Don - when you're willing to retire all police officers within 100 miles of your home, then we can talk about Israel trying nothing as an answer. I suspect you realize that this is a continuous need for us, even if it only maintains the status quo.

The status quo is a hell of a lot better than alternate scenarios.

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Sooner or later Hamas, or some similar group, will move on up from 99.9% ineffective missiles to something really scarey, like biological weapons or maybe even nuclear.



Giving Gaza open borders and imposing no consequences for Hamas violence makes that far more likely.

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Israel sucks. They really do. What modern army goes on a rampage with tanks, missiles, training, artillery and air support against unarmed civilians and only manages to kill 1800 people.
ISIS, the Syrian government, Egypt, Jordan, Iran...these people know how to kill Arabs. Israelis are pathetically inadequate at this with their so called "morals".
Civilian casualties are always part of any conflict...except if
1) You force every house to have a shelter and enforce it by law. no matter the extra cost to the economy.
2) Invest in an early warning system that works. Train the population to obey it. and make sure it goes off in time to make a difference.
3) Invest money in a missile defense system that every other country in the world has been trying to build for years. Test it. Redesign it. Field it. Train people to use it. Deploy it in time and use it effectively.
4) Invest in Human, signals and tactical intelligence forces. Fund them. Analyzed the data in real-time. Find the rockets and destroy them.
5) Go on a massive media and diplomatic mission to explain your side. Plead with foreign powers. Speak English.
6) Invest in a well-trained well-equipped ambulance corps. Train and equip hospital personnel to deal with trauma. Invest in prosthetics for the eventual loss of limbs so that the population is productive even after suffering personal losses.
7) Regulate, legislate and execute insurance structures so that when the damage does occur you are not standing on a pile of rubble without a future.
8) Maintain a system where protest against the government is encouraged. Democratic elections can put a media personality in the government. encourage a regular change of power. Make it possible and imperative that even those who want to harm you have representatives in your own government.

The list is not complete. It appears that there is a lot you can choose to do to defend your civilian population from harm. Israel is a fool for doing so. These idiots invested in defending the population where death and destruction with people wailing on camera is better for the image of Israel.

Hamas did the right thing. Get as many people as possible to die. Crying and dead kids make for excellent TV.
I feel sorry for the parents of these children who will have to live their entire lives knowing they could have protected their kids and didn't. They just wanted to be left alone but the thugs in Israel forced them to wisely choose between killing Israelis and killing their kids. I even feel more sorry for the Israeli idiot who just wanted to be left alone but instead chose to go to Gaza with 50,000 other idiots.

The blockade:
Israel is too stupid to stop all trade in Gaza. The power bill is never paid but the power stays on. Israel spend tons of money to sift through the many tons of goods passing through the border every day instead of just shutting it completely. It's a border, you can close it just like they did in Texas.
The naval blockade is inexcusable.

The loss of life is abominable. It should keep us all awake at night. Period.

Blame Israel because war is murderous. Blame them for being happy and free.
Praise Hamas for fighting. For spending energy on rockets and tunnels while the UN build schools and hospitals. Praise Hamas for fighting for their freedom. Fighting to lift the blockade. Fighting for their way of life.
There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

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another journalist that says zero evidence of Hamas using human shields.

I think logic would believe independent journalists then Israeli sources.



Ok then, let's look at a few "independent sources" that do more than just "say". They also "show"

Full story with a video on how Hamas set up and fired rockets right next to hotels and apartments:
http://www.ndtv.com/...fires-rockets-571033


A finnish reporter saying Rockets are fired from right next to Gaza's main hospital (the same one Hamas leaders are hiding in...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu-e5qWXx-k

Italian journalist Gabriele Barbati said he was able to speak freely about witnessing a Hamas misfire that killed nine children at the Shati camp, confirming the Israel Defense Forces version of events, but only after leaving Gaza, “far from Hamas retaliation.”"

http://www.algemeiner.com/...d-children-in-shati/

And if that's not enough for you, there are also the videos where Hamas admit it themselves
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuNQvPh8XKA

Need more proof?

As usual, your hatred towards Israel blinds you to the fact that Hamas is the worst enemy of the Palestinian people you care about so much...
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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kelpdiver

You forgot the UN, who noted the illegal storage of weapons in at least 3 of their facilities.

Of course, we know the UN is part of the Zionist conspiracy, so they don't count as independent. Only Darius's blood relatives can be trusted.



One thing I find vastly amusing is fact that being martyred is viewed as the penultimate goal of jihad, being a free ticket to an eternal islamic Disneyland and whatnot, yet it is also the biggest source of bitching by those who espouse that particular brand of nonsense.

If a group of Sunnis kills your Shiite family, it would seem that a thank you note would be more in order than a counterattack.

"Thank you for sending my loved ones to the best place imaginable. With your able assistance they do not have to spend another minute in this disease ridden shithole, and are assured infinite bliss. You have done all of us, and the world in general, a great favor."

Then again, maybe getting all pissed off is a hint that somebody has a sneaking suspicion that is is all bullshit.

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First, just to be clear this whole discussion is just a thought experiment about what can be done differently that might lead to a different (and more desirable) outcome. No-one of any significance is going to read any of this or actually take any action based on our banter.

I do not really expect that either Israel or Hamas (or whatever other flavor of Islamic "resistance" group holds sway down the road) will do anything very different from what they have done for the last 65 years. So, I fear that 65 years from now the Israel/Palestine situation will continue to be a cancer, spewing venom into the rest of the Middle East and the broader world.

So, back to the thought experiment.

First, I did not suggest that Israel "do nothing". Doing "nothing" would mean allowing Hamas' missiles to reach their targets unimpeded. Doing "nothing" would mean allowing suicide bombers to walk unimpeded into Israel. Doing "nothing" would mean lifting the blockade and allowing Hamas to arm themselves unimpeded. I suggested none of these things.

The current conflict has demonstrated that Iron Dome is a remarkably effective defense against missile attack. Hamas has launched thousands of missiles, and what number have gotten through and hit a "useful" target (something other than open desert)? Less than five? How many Israeli civilian casualties have there been? One dead and less than a dozen injured?

I think in the light of Iron Dome it would be instructive to apply a cost/benefit/risk analysis to various alternative responses to provocation by Hamas. Let's start with the current (and historical) strategy of bombing launch sites.
Benefit: ?? is there any benefit? Is there any evidence that Hamas has been deterred, or even impeded, in their actions? Given the extreme mobility of launch sites, which can be set up, fire off a missile, and run away before the Israeli response arrives, coupled with Hamas' fanaticism and complete disregard for the civilian population of either Israel or Gaza, it's hard for me to see how the Israeli response has had any sort of deterrent effect on Hamas.
Cost: At least 1,800 dead Palestinians, at least 60% of whom are women and children. It's likely that every dead civilian generates extreme enmity towards Israel within the Palestinian population, and is a fantastic recruiting tool for Hamas and other radical jihadist organizations. Unfortunately for Israel this is like fighting the Hydra, where every part that is cut off grows into a new warrior. Or five.
Another part of the cost is the repeated large-scale destruction of infrastructure and housing in Gaza. Because much of the "civilized" world is unwilling to see the population of Gaza starve or die of exposure, and because the embargo (see below) ensures that Gaza has no functioning economy or resources to rebuild itself, a burden is placed on the rest of the world to rebuild what was destroyed. This results in general enmity towards Israel as well as Hamas on the part of the global community.
Yet another part of the cost is the effort to maintain the embargo on Gaza. Significant Israeli resources and money have to be devoted to be devoted to this aim. Also because of the extreme restriction of goods going into Gaza, and a ban on exports, there is no hope that Gaza will ever have a functioning economy. Gaza is totally dependent on the largesse of the global community: over 60% of the population has no income other than aid from international charities, and a majority of the children have an inadequate nutritional intake. Again, a great recruiting tool for jihadists, and a source of international enmity towards Israel.
Of course, there is also the cost to Israel of maintaining a proportionally enormous military. A significant portion of this financial cost is borne by the US, but the social impacts are borne by Israel.

All of these costs will have to borne in perpetuity, unless something happens to change the situation, hopefully in the direction of peaceful coexistence of Israel with its neighbors.

You use a "cop analogy", but I think it's inadequate. It would fit better if we modified it to include:
1. Criminals are only rarely able to actually burgle your house or harm you or your family, due to highly effective alarms, impenetrable doors and windows, attack dogs roaming the yard, and so on.
2. Police rarely capture the criminals who attempt to harm you.
3. In the (generally unsuccessful) effort to capture the criminal, the police frequently (though not by direct intention) burn down the criminals house and kill his spouse and children. They also burn down the neighboring houses and kill those neighbors as well.
4. Survivors of the police action blame you, and decide to try to get revenge on you, not on the criminal who attracted the police in the first place.

I think an instructive example can be drawn from immunology. Most people assume that the human body reacts to any invading organism by mounting an all out attack, resulting (if it is successful) in the eradication of the invader. This scenario only applies to some pathogens, such as Plasmodium (the cause of malaria). In many other cases the immune system just regulates the pathogen so it does not cause adverse symptoms; the pathogen continues to survive, and as a result we are chronically infected, but without symptoms (and so no disease). This happens because there is a cost to the immune response, and indeed in many cases the disease symptoms result from "collateral damage" done by the immune system to our own bodies as it attempts to eradicate the pathogen. There is always a balancing act that needs to be achieved between the cost of fighting the pathogen and the cost of not fighting the pathogen, and frequently the optimal balance is tolerating/managing the pathogen at a level that results in the lowest overall symptoms (=disease).

Well enough for now, must get to work.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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>You are right. Israel must be stopped. What can we do to help?

Well, stop attacking them would be a great start.

> And I really want to find out how Israel must be punished.

If they are as bloodthirsty as you claim, then just stop attacking them. They will no longer have an excuse to fire rockets, and you will make them suffer by not letting them do what they want. Do you want them to suffer or not?

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decompresion

Darius,
You are right. Israel must be stopped. What can we do to help?

Everyone,
Darius is obviously right. And I really want to find out how Israel must be punished.



I think the only solution that would please Darius and his fellow travelers in the Islamic near east would be for all the Hebrews of Israel to be swimming with the fishes in the Mediterranean Sea. The Arabs of Palestine aligned themselves with the Germans in WWII to do that and we know how that worked out for them. All the Arab countries expelled all the jews within their borders and stole their lands and possessions across the region which amounted to far more combined land area that makes up the current State of Israel.. ( without compensation in any form other than allowing MOST of them to live).

Historically I think the old Move somewhere else or Die..... has been used far too often and I am pretty sure the jews are tired of it and learned to fight rather than to flee...

Oh there it is.. I was searching for the pertinent quote being used on other non-Sunni human beings... and I found it.... freedom of religion muslim style

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The Yazidis, who follow an ancient religion with ties to Zoroastrianism, fled their homes after the Islamic State group issued an ultimatum to convert to Islam, pay a religious fine, flee their homes or face death.



Convert of Die baby.... that's the ticcie.

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First, I did not suggest that Israel "do nothing". Doing "nothing" would mean allowing Hamas' missiles to reach their targets unimpeded. Doing "nothing" would mean allowing suicide bombers to walk unimpeded into Israel. Doing "nothing" would mean lifting the blockade and allowing Hamas to arm themselves unimpeded. I suggested none of these things.

The current conflict has demonstrated that Iron Dome is a remarkably effective defense against missile attack. Hamas has launched thousands of missiles, and what number have gotten through and hit a "useful" target (something other than open desert)? Less than five? How many Israeli civilian casualties have there been? One dead and less than a dozen injured?



Ok, let's say Iron Dome is ~90% effective (not including mortar shells and short distance rockets where it's less effective. If someone was shooting at your family and had only 10% of hitting them, would you allow them to continue? It's great that you're suggesting Israelis take these chances, would you accept it for your own family?

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You use a "cop analogy", but I think it's inadequate. It would fit better if we modified it to include:
1. Criminals are only rarely able to actually burgle your house or harm you or your family, due to highly effective alarms, impenetrable doors and windows, attack dogs roaming the yard, and so on.
2. Police rarely capture the criminals who attempt to harm you.
3. In the (generally unsuccessful) effort to capture the criminal, the police frequently (though not by direct intention) burn down the criminals house and kill his spouse and children. They also burn down the neighboring houses and kill those neighbors as well.
4. Survivors of the police action blame you, and decide to try to get revenge on you, not on the criminal who attracted the police in the first place.



Your analogy is flawed. you're comparing burglaries (which you can easily recover from) to murder (which is not so easy to recover from)

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I think an instructive example can be drawn from immunology. Most people assume that the human body reacts to any invading organism by mounting an all out attack, resulting (if it is successful) in the eradication of the invader. This scenario only applies to some pathogens, such as Plasmodium (the cause of malaria). In many other cases the immune system just regulates the pathogen so it does not cause adverse symptoms



Completely agree. But Israel is doing just that. you're immune system will destroy a cell if the pathogen "hides" in a civilian cell, much like cancer treatment will harm nearby cells to kill the cancer.
If Israel went all out (and I can think of several countries that would go all out to stop missile attacks), Gaza would be flat.
Luckily, this is not the case. Israel is trying to take out the threat while avoiding hurting civilians. not an easy task when they are used as human shields...
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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Thanks for your reply (really!).

The impression one gets from the media here is that Iron Dome is a lot more effective than 90%, if you consider than not every Hamas missile is worth shooting down, only those that are actually heading towards populated areas. Perhaps that impression is misleading. Is it the case that over 1,000 missiles have struck Israeli cities and towns in the current conflict, considering the number of missiles that that Hamas has fired? Anyway I'm sure there is room for improvement.

I agree the cop analogy isn't a great one, I wasn't the one to first bring it up. Still I said "harm", not burglarize (though being robbed is a form of harm). The point still stands that we would not tolerate a situation in which it was routine for the police to kill numerous bystanders because they happened to be in a vicinity where criminals had been spotted earlier.

I have already said several times that I support Israel, I consider Hamas to be homicidal fanatics, and I appreciate the difficult situation Israel is put in. Given the population density in Gaza, and Hamas' disregard for their own civilian population (or even desire for civilian cultivates they can use for propaganda), it's a given that any military response by Israel will result in dead and maimed civilians. I do recognize that Israel is trying to minimize casualties. However it doesn't play well (outside Israel) when a school full of refugees, or a hospital, is targeted because a suspected militant on a motorcycle rode nearby. One such highly visible incident easily outweighs a hundred times Israel withheld fire that the public never hears about.

Let me ask you a couple of things:
1. Do you believe there is a military solution to the problem? Can Hamas and all the other islamic groups be defeated utterly, rendered forever incapable of harming another Israeli, and the Palestinian population be pacified to the point where the embargo can be relaxed, using force?
2. Can you imagine anything that Israel could ever do that would result in a change towards peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians?
3. What do you think the condition in Gaza and the West Bank will be like in 100 years?

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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FWIW... the military solution to the Hamas problem... is eradicating every last Hamas motherfucker and confiscating or blowing up every last motherfucking piece of shit rocket they have.

Problem is.... you're likely going to have to bulldoze the whole damn Gaza strip into the Mediterranean. Not what anybody wants.

Unfortunately, what Israel is likely going to have to do is force Hamas to surrender on Israel terms. Will that happen?
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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>Unfortunately, what Israel is likely going to have to do is force Hamas to
>surrender on Israel terms. Will that happen?

It might, and would be completely useless.

Monday - Hamas surrenders and hands over all their arms.
Tuesday - Angry Palestinians salvage some rockets from a recently bombed site
Wednesday - Hamas II fires its first rockets at Israel.
Thursday - Hezbollah funnels some arms and new rockets to Hamas II.
Friday - business as usual.

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billvon


Monday - Hamas surrenders and hands over all their arms.
Tuesday - Angry Palestinians salvage some rockets from a recently bombed site
Wednesday - Hamas II fires its first rockets at Israel.
Thursday - Hezbollah funnels some arms and new rockets to Hamas II.
Friday - business as usual.



I absolutely agree here.

Frankly, I suspect that the leadership of Hamas might have, on a few times, agreed to a cease fire and intended to. BUT, the followers are fanatics, so even if the leaders make the attempt, it just takes some idiot fanatic in a school somewhere to load up a couple rockets and fire them "unilaterally". Thus breaking the cease fire.

Hamas, of course, will be too proud to admit they have zero control over their fanatical followers.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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I absolutely agree here.

Frankly, I suspect that the leadership of Hamas might have, on a few times, agreed to a cease fire and intended to. BUT, the followers are fanatics, so even if the leaders make the attempt, it just takes some idiot fanatic in a school somewhere to load up a couple rockets and fire them "unilaterally". Thus breaking the cease fire.

Hamas, of course, will be too proud to admit they have zero control over their fanatical followers.



Actually, I don't think that's the case. they've proved that they can maintain a ceasefire when they want to. They followed the recent 72 hour cease fire until 4 hours before it was scheduled to end.

But if you're right, it's much worse. it means there is no point in signing any agreement with Hamas leaders if their people continue to shoot at Israel...
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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falxori

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I absolutely agree here.

Frankly, I suspect that the leadership of Hamas might have, on a few times, agreed to a cease fire and intended to. BUT, the followers are fanatics, so even if the leaders make the attempt, it just takes some idiot fanatic in a school somewhere to load up a couple rockets and fire them "unilaterally". Thus breaking the cease fire.

Hamas, of course, will be too proud to admit they have zero control over their fanatical followers.



Actually, I don't think that's the case. they've proved that they can maintain a ceasefire when they want to. They followed the recent 72 hour cease fire until 4 hours before it was scheduled to end.

But if you're right, it's much worse. it means there is no point in signing any agreement with Hamas leaders if their people continue to shoot at Israel...



I think you are right... until there is a shift in the minds of the people.
With crap like this from Hamas TV indoctrinating children to kill jews... it will be a hell of a long time before peace will even be a possibility..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Q8K5TmivM

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Sometimes ya just need to get as many nonviolent civilians and refugees as you can out of an area, and then just lay waste to it.

At that point, can start rebuilding.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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