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Stickin it to the smug Prius drivers.

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>so the farmer would now have to arrange for TWO gas tanks on the farm to
>be filled, else he'd have to drive into town to fill the family car...

Well, he could do that, or just get the one tank and use the low-sulfur "car-grade" diesel for everything. Might be cheaper to have two tanks.

>we had a big fuel tank on our farm - it held "fuel", we filled the tractors and
>the truck and car from it

You can still do that with ULSD. Works fine with tractors. As you know, if you tried to do that with "red diesel" today you'd pretty quickly damage your truck.

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Iago

***Gotcha.

Incidentally Billvon - my take on it is that these http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/hydrogen-powered-toyota-fcv-arrive-next-year will eventually kill electric cars - I know the fantasy is filling your car up with water but I guess thats a way off. Thoughts?



The hydrogen required would probably be produced by cracking natural gas or methane.

If that's the case, just put the natural gas in the car as a fuel. It's more in line with existing technology and infrastructure.

Yeah agreed - if we are still on the fossil fuels as the infrastructure thats not ideal.
Never try to eat more than you can lift

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>my take on it is that these (FCV's) will eventually kill electric cars.

A few notes on that -

I really like the idea of hydrogen; the biggest problem is just that we don't have any. The only way hydrogen cars make sense (IMO) is if they are designed with a methane reformer to allow the use of methane (natural gas.) Easier to store, we have a lot of it, and we can make it from garbage.

If we ever get HTGR nuclear reactors then we can do thermal dissociation of water; that's one of the few ways that hydrogen can be made economically.

However from a wider view FCV's _are_ electric cars, just with different batteries. If pure hydrogen fuel cells ever make it out of the lab I predict they will be used with battery-based cars much as pluggable hybrids are now. Want to drive around town? All electric. Want to go to Vegas? Stop and fill up with hydrogen (or methane) occasionally.

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Iago


Well, the hydrogen filling stations run about $2 million each last I checked. I can get natural gas from the line already running to my house.



same with power lines - everyone has one. (slightly less than everyone have a natural gas line). So it's a bit hard for hydrogen, with limited distribution options, to beat either out.

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Andy9o8

Quote

GA doesn't have emission control laws.



When you have Christ, the carcinogens will take care of themselves.



Carcinogens do what carcinogens do, it is what it is. With Christ you can have peace of mind dealing with it.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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jakee

Course, the other solution would be to get rid of agricultural diesel and let the farmer just have one tank filled with 'road taxed' diesel for all his tractors, combines and machinery. I'm sure he'd love that idea.



sure, he'd hate to lose his little subsidy
the processing groups would hate to lose the business of processing two grades of fuel
the politicians would hate to lose the opportunity to crow about "helping the poor farmers"
the dye company would hate to lose the pointless sales of the red dye
...........(government creates idiotic inefficiencies)

too bad, so sad

get rid of penalties, get rid of subsidies, treat/tax everyone the same

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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jakee

Sometimes I really can't figure out where you're coming from.

Post 1: Look at them making it more difficult for the poor farmer.

Post 2: Fuck the farmer!

;)



short version - government trying to buy votes claims they are making it easier on the farmer with the subsidy. net result - they buy votes, drive the cost of him doing business up, make it more difficult for him to do business and live his life, complicate his choices unnecessarily. Farmer thinks - "great, free money" but nothing is free. dumb farmer.

gov claims victory for the sad needy farmer

subsidies are not 'helping' the farmer

screw subsidies, short term thinking, long term fail - both economically, and socially

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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short version - government trying to buy votes claims they are making it easier on the farmer with the subsidy. net result - they buy votes, drive the cost of him doing business up, make it more difficult for him to do business and live his life, complicate his choices unnecessarily. Farmer thinks - "great, free money" but nothing is free. dumb farmer.

gov claims victory for the sad needy farmer

subsidies are not 'helping' the farmer



Except it is. I have absolutely no idea how you can claim it's more expensive for a farmer to have a tank of non-taxed diesel that he can't fill his car up from than it is for him to have to fill everything in the farm on taxed diesel. It's evidently absurd.


I also don't see it as a simple subsidy issue. If a justification for high fuel taxes for vehicles is to raise revenues for the road network proportional to the useage of the road network then it doesn't make sense to apply the same level of taxation to fuel that will be used by non-road going vehicles and machinery. And that applies to everyone, not just farmers.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Iago

***VROOM VROOM VROOM they are a rollin coal

The good ole boys are showing everyone how they feel about that Kenyan Commie...... 'MURICA



This reminds me of that whole 'Truck Nutz' fad a few years back. Basically another 'look at me I'm a bad-ass truck driver' thing.

But hey, to each their own.

Yeah I remember that..... I could not find a Bronze Vagina to hang on the reciever of my Big Red at the time ( Ram 2500 Diesel 4x4 Crew):ph34r::ph34r:

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jakee

Quote

short version - government trying to buy votes claims they are making it easier on the farmer with the subsidy. net result - they buy votes, drive the cost of him doing business up, make it more difficult for him to do business and live his life, complicate his choices unnecessarily. Farmer thinks - "great, free money" but nothing is free. dumb farmer.

gov claims victory for the sad needy farmer

subsidies are not 'helping' the farmer



Except it is. I have absolutely no idea how you can claim it's more expensive for a farmer to have a tank of non-taxed diesel that he can't fill his car up from than it is for him to have to fill everything in the farm on taxed diesel. It's evidently absurd.


I also don't see it as a simple subsidy issue. If a justification for high fuel taxes for vehicles is to raise revenues for the road network proportional to the useage of the road network then it doesn't make sense to apply the same level of taxation to fuel that will be used by non-road going vehicles and machinery. And that applies to everyone, not just farmers.



I agree, the non (or lower) taxed version for non-road going vehicles simply makes sense.

Never mind the thought that agriculture get's priced out of the country. You get extremely vulnerable when you have to import all your food.

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kelpdiver

***
Are they simply not handing out more stickers or have they expired/revoked ones they've handed out? I actually don't drive very often (much less on the freeway) but when I do I still see plenty of one passenger Priuses with the HOV stickers on them.



They were valid past when they still issued them, but they're not valid now. So you just have a carpool cheating asshole in a prius....hardly the only one of those! I presume they're just relying on the lower enforcement rate - I don't imagine the CHP is cutting them any slack.

Okay, I get it now... I'm seeing plug-in hybid versions of the Prius with green stickers (saw one parked on the street yesterday when I was riding home.)

I re-assert my desire that smug Prius drivers that use car pool lanes while alone get into an accident with another smug Prius driver.

/edit to add: And why on Earth is this thing on the list? It can be used electric only, but burning gas it only gets 32 mpg.

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jakee

. If a justification for high fuel taxes for vehicles is to raise revenues for the road network



two things:


1-
targetted taxes are also idiotic - it just means that certain projects don't have to be prioritized - and it rationalizes special taxes on specific market items - like fuel (for roads) or cigarettes (for medical). I know it 'feels' good, and it fools people into a 'that makes sense' thing or even a "hey, I like it because I don't pay as much as the next guy" thinking. But it's just an act to rationalize another flavor of tax/fee/etc

I'd prefer a limited common tax pool - then prioritize all the expenses - fund top to bottom and if you run out of money before hitting the bottom, then good - those projects shouldn't be funded. Force government to prioritize and budget.

2-
as for non taxed fuel for farmers being less expensive - I didn't say it was cheaper (short term thinking) for the farmer, I said it drives the wrong economic and social behavior. Of course the farmer loves his special, just for him, subsidy action. Doesn't everybody? We all love our mortgage interest deduction as individuals. But society hates that housing prices are higher, and people are house poor, etc etc etc. As parent, I love education subsidies, but throwing money at everyone jsut drives the cost of education up for everyone - then we rationalize even more 'help', then the price goes up, then we rationalize more help......ad nauseum. does anyone recall the simple supply/demand curve? anyone?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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SkyDekker

I agree, the non (or lower) taxed version for non-road going vehicles simply makes sense.



QED



"But, but.....we HAVE to have roads"

then gov better prioritize it above the cut off line

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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as for non taxed fuel for farmers being less expensive - I didn't say it was cheaper (short term thinking) for the farmer,



No, you said it was more expensive.

Quote

I said it drives the wrong economic and social behavior.



No, you didn't.

That may be what you're saying now but it wasn't remotely what you said. A post that requires the reader to be psychic is not a useful post.

Quote

I'd prefer a limited common tax pool - then prioritize all the expenses - fund top to bottom and if you run out of money before hitting the bottom, then good - those projects shouldn't be funded. Force government to prioritize and budget.



Then you'd also have to completely centralise taxation and spending. Otherwise what happens? Rich communities can pick up the slack and fund whatever they want - poor communities lose out on basic services.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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rehmwa

***I agree, the non (or lower) taxed version for non-road going vehicles simply makes sense.



QED

"But, but.....we HAVE to have roads"

Yeah. Ya kinda do.

Quote

then gov better prioritize it above the cut off line



What was it someone else quoted yesterday? For every problem there's a solution that's simple, obvious and wrong.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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