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"WTC jumpers still facing burglary charges"

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Being neutral on the issue of prosecutorial discretion on bringing the burglary charges, instead of misdemeanor trespass and base jumping.

The definition of trespass is to enter w/o permission.
The definition of burglary is to enter without permission
WITH THE INTENT to commit a crime "within". Usually the crime within is stealing property, but burglary is also charged if the person had the specific intent to commit any crime. Including arson, assault, destruction of property, theft etc.,

Burglary is a specific intent crime. Prosecutor must prove, that the trespass was committed with the specific intent to violate some law within. In this case, if I am reading it right, the "crime within", is the other law which prohibits jumping off a building. Even if the offense which was specifically intended (base jumping) is a misdemeanor, it is still defined as a burglary, as the trespass (going in thru a hole in the fence) was done with the specific intent to commit the misdemeanor of base jumping. An analogy would be to trespass-enter without permission, with the intent to steal a low value item. Uh...a candy bar for example. That is defined as a burglary.

As I recall, some teenage kid was spotted in the building a month or so ago. Since it could not be proved he had any intent to commit a crime within, he was simply a trespasser.

The "within" part is creative on the part of defense counsel, I get that. Not too likely to fly though.

Other criminal law definitions may be coming into play here too. Aiding and abetting, (can be charged as principals), conspiracy to commit a felony, etc. Can be used against getaway drivers and those who aided, as long as it can be proved the person who aided knew he was aiding the commission of the felony.

The law part is simple, and all of these criminal law principles are used every day to charge those planning, preparing and committing crimes.

What is at issue here is prosecutorial discretion: the decision to charge, or not to charge, one thing or another. Not too difficult to see the factors leading to the district attorney's decisions here.

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I'm nearly certain the BASE jumpers in question understood what they were doing was illegal. At some point in their decision making process, they weighed the pro and cons of getting caught.

They could have jumped many other buildings on the planet.
They could have kept quiet about it.

They published on YouTube.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Keep your eye on the sparrow.

And that's the name of that tune.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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quade

I'm nearly certain the BASE jumpers in question understood what they were doing was illegal. At some point in their decision making process, they weighed the pro and cons of getting caught.

They could have jumped many other buildings on the planet.
They could have kept quiet about it.

They published on YouTube.

.



They published it after they were arrested. Not before.

I've never once considered burglary while urban exploring with a parachute. Trespassing... sure. I knew I was and was not thrilled about the prospect but figured I would get away with it, and if not. I had bail set aside already.

The 16 year old did the exact same thing the jumpers did except without a parachute and basically got off. Add the jump and they are felons.

I hope they get charges lowered because the deed doesn't fit the charge. I'd say most people discussing this here actually know that.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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normiss

Ignorance of the law doesn't reduce the penalty.



Just out of curiosity, have any BASE jumpers ever been charged this severely?

I know some get trespass tickets, others have gotten vandalism (criminal damage to property) for the damage caused when they broke in, usually door locks.
But this is the first time I've ever heard of felony burglary charges.

I fully understand the "Make the NYPD look like fools and you're going to pay" mentality.
I'm just wondering if there's any precedent.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wolfriverjoe

***Ignorance of the law doesn't reduce the penalty.



Just out of curiosity, have any BASE jumpers ever been charged this severely?

I'm not exactly certain this situation is the same. Yes, there is the NYPD "you made us look like idiots" thing, but the World Trade Center post-9/11 is also now a bit different than any other building I'm aware of that has ever been jumped. I'm fairly certain that in some people's minds (I might even be one of them) it's now considered a bit of sacred ground.

Let's say the police caught somebody diving the wreck of the USS Arizona. How would we feel about that in general? Would that be "just" trespassing or would people feel as if that's maybe something greater?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Note - For the record, I repeat: I do think the DA's office is being too hard-assed in this case.

That being said... strictly as to the technicalities:

@dpreguy - the predicate crime was reckless endangerment - i.e., of people below who could have been hurt or killed if the jumper had a mal or went in with nothing out, or just plain had a bad landing (it happens in demos, for example). BASE jumpers sometimes do go in with nothing out. And Google the photo of the woman suicide who landed on a car parked at the base of the Empire State Building after jumping from its observation deck in 1947. It can happen.

Defending on the basis of the word "within" would almost certainly fail, since the jumper used the portion of the building on which he trespassed as the launching point from which to commit the act charged as reckless endangerment.


@Hookitt - The 16 year old kid could only have been charged with trespass, there really was no other "crime within" to trigger the element of burglary - as contrasted with the BASE jumpers, as I discuss above.

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I hope they get charges lowered because the deed doesn't fit the charge. I'd say most people discussing this here actually know that.



I hope so, too. I'm just the messenger, guys - please don't shoot me.

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quade


Let's say the police caught somebody diving the wreck of the USS Arizona. How would we feel about that in general? Would that be "just" trespassing or would people feel as if that's maybe something greater?



it's still merely trespassing. (and fairly dangerous trespassing as it remains a military base) Now if they start disturbing the wreck, we've turned a corner.

A rational jury would reject such an add on for these jumpers. But no guarantees of getting that.

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A rational jury would reject such an add on for these jumpers.



Well, you can hope so, but understand that what you'd be hoping for would be "jury nullification". The judge's charge to the jury, explaining the technical aspects of the statutes charged, would essentially have to be ignored by the jury. Not impossible, certainly, but a gamble.

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Andy9o8

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A rational jury would reject such an add on for these jumpers.



Well, you can hope so, but understand that what you'd be hoping for would be "jury nullification". The judge's charge to the jury, explaining the technical aspects of the statutes charged, would essentially have to be ignored by the jury. Not impossible, certainly, but a gamble.



I would refuse to convict on the burglary charge. I likely have to convict on the trespass. OTOH, I suspect the DA would have excused me at the onset as a skydiver.

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jclalor

I don't think the punishment has anything to do with BASE, but has everything to do with circumventing security at a hallowed national landmark and then rubbing it in.



How did they rub it in? They did it at night and didn't release the videos until they were caught. In fact if the overzealous manhunt didn't catch them, 99.99% of the people on these forums wouldn't even know that the jumps took place in the first place.
Your rights end where my feelings begin.

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Andy9o8



According to This Article, the overall figure is actually in the 18-24% range for the past few years. Still high as compared to the other 4 Boroughs, but those are the data points.

I've been involved with criminal justice all over the country. On balance, I do think the DA's office is being too harshly zealous in this case. But all the NYC-bashing I've been seeing in this thread is silly to the point of juvenile.



When I resigned in 2008 NY Daily News interviewed me. They filed a FOIA request directly with the city, rather than going through the state as the reporter in the story you cited did.
The figures they got were closer to 50% DP (decline to prosecute) rates.

And New York deserves its bashing. You know why I walked off the job? I am a combat vet. I swore an oath to upheld and protect the constitution of this country. I was not about to lie under oath in order to make illegal (as determined by the US Supreme Court but still practiced in NYC) quota numbers every month just to make some higher ranking officer happy.

I saw men and women torn part, when faced with having to move from day shift (where they could see their kids and significant others) to night shift, because they werent meeting quota each month. So they did whatever it took to make those numbers. Including creating arrests and lying under oath.

I saw one of my former partners in the 41 Precinct THROWN IN A MENTAL HOSPITAL, illegally by the deputy chief of the Bronx Patrol Division, because he recorded evidence of such illegal quota enforcement by patrol supervisors for the press and Internal Affairs. They kidnapped him from his own apartment (in Manhattan) and put him in a mental hospital (in the Bronx), and claimed he was suicidal.

You have no idea the shit that goes on in that city. Unless you've walked a beat there, you cant possibly know.

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normiss

As my criminal defense attorney friend says: "Only break as many laws as you can afford at one time."

Sure it was cool to jump from, but did anyone truthfully understand and appreciate the legal risk being taken?
I'm not saying I think the law is in the right, but bitching about bad laws after breaking them isn't the right approach IMO.



I agree. These selfish punks are not victims. Now they're paying for it.

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