New california gun control laws working like a champ

[Backintothesky 0]

I'd LOVE to have most countries bring back national service. It's a damn shame they don't have it.

But yes you are right, the NRA wouldn't go for it.

quade

***Switzerland is full of guns - how many mass shootings do they have?

If you want to make US requirements for gun ownership the SAME as requirements for gun ownership in Switzerland, then go for it.

I think you might want to look into what that is though.

I have a feeling the NRA isn't going to go for it.

[Backintothesky 0]

Yep, every country has those nutbags.

Banning people from owning arms won't stop them. And doing so will stop legal gun owners from protecting unarmed citizens.

Which is why when the Norwegien guy started shooting up an island where nobody was carrying arms he was able to kill over 60 (I think) children who could only just cry and beg him not to kill them as he reloaded and slotted them calmly in the head.

THAT guy was so determined he would have just bought the arms illegally, and NO it isn't that hard to do.

BillyVance

***
I could go on, but guns ARE NOT the problem in the USA. The American psyche is.....

I would say you're wrong on the American psyche being the problem. Every country has their nutbags that should not get their hands on a gun. Wasn't there a mass murder somewhere in Norway a few years back where one guy went bonkers?

What we have is a mental illness problem, and it's a world-wide problem.

[Backintothesky 0]

Indeed it does have a smaller population.

I would still argue it is the cultural differences.

When I said it is an American psyche problem I don't mean to say that only Americans have mentally ill people. What I mean to say is that it is the attitude around firearms that makes the difference.

The Swiss for example view their firearms through the lense of protecting their country first and foremost. It is to deter and defend their country and all the people within it including their family from foreign and I guess domestic attacks.

The general consensus, and forgive me if I am wrong, behind the NRA and gun owners is that a gun is primarily their for the individual. A gun is nothing to do with defending the country from attack but to protect and defend the individual first and foremost. And it is to defend the individual from their own government.

There is a HUGE difference between that. One is an extension of personal power and the other is an extension of the country's power.

One is a "in this together" mentality and the other is a "me against every other fucker" mentality.

That's not to say all Swiss are like that and all Americans are like this but that seems to be the general underlying philosophy.

Of course I cannot back this up what so ever but I would be relatively confident in suggesting that if Switzerland were the population size of the US that the number of gun related murders and mass shootings would be less than the current US figures.

kelpdiver

***
Switzerland is full of guns - how many mass shootings do they have?

ignoring any potential cultural differences, it has a population that is 1/40th the size of the US.

[kelpdiver 2]

Backintothesky

Indeed it does have a smaller population.

I would still argue it is the cultural differences.

You can make a very reasonable argument, but what you can't do is support it by asking how many shootings they've had in Switzerland. The answer appears to be 2 in recent years (2001 - 14 dead, 2013- 4 dead), which would translate to 80 here (and I don't believe we've had that many in the 2000s).

And when the data point is so small, random variation could get you 1 or 3 or even 0 or 4 or 5, so you can't make statistically valid comparisons between the two.

Quote

The general consensus, and forgive me if I am wrong, behind the NRA and gun owners is that a gun is primarily their for the individual. A gun is nothing to do with defending the country from attack but to protect and defend the individual first and foremost. And it is to defend the individual from their own government.

Yes, mostly, but no. The "well regulated" bit is motivated more by concerns of national defense - that it doesn't really help the nation if all it's armed citizens can't shoot for shit. They wanted to ensure proficiency. I don't think it resonated as deeply in the discussion as the fear of tyrannical government, but again there was some salesmanship going on. The Founders feared the mob as much as the mob feared another King George. They already had the failed experiment with the first US government.

[kelpdiver 2]

jclalor

When it comes to "Well regulated" militias, how do you think our's compares to Switzerland?

Where would I go to join our militia?

you already are a member. But I have no idea how competent (well regulated) you are with a weapon.

[regulator 0]

jclalor

When it comes to "Well regulated" militias, how do you think our's compares to Switzerland?


Where would I go to join our militia?

No, world of warcraft isn't a militia.

[normiss 620]

Any thoughts on psychotropic drugs being part of the problem?
List of violence and the drug

[kelpdiver 2]

normiss

Any thoughts on psychotropic drugs being part of the problem?
List of violence and the drug

certainly a lot of suspicion, but with the frequency of these sort of events not markedly changing (particularly in schools), is it demonizing the drugs unncessarily. I have little doubt they are oversubscribed, like antibiotics, but if we make everyone afraid of them, are we doing more harm?

[skypuppy 1]

BillyVance

***
I could go on, but guns ARE NOT the problem in the USA. The American psyche is.....

I would say you're wrong on the American psyche being the problem. Every country has their nutbags that should not get their hands on a gun. Wasn't there a mass murder somewhere in Norway a few years back where one guy went bonkers?

What we have is a mental illness problem, and it's a world-wide problem.

I believe there was one in belgium this week...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Backintothesky 0]

Fair point re. statistical comparison.

However, looking at the Swiss shootings in 2013 for example we can see some serious breakdown of due process on the part of the authorities in a couple of cases.

The Menznau shooter was once sentenced to a year in prison for robbery. The accused Daillon killer was a veteran whose service weapon had been confiscated because of his history of mental health problems.

It was not sure how they acquired those firearms, but if it was illegally then no legislation will stop them doing so. And if it was legally then they should have, by the law, NOT been allowed to buy them.

I believe the same thing happened with the Dunblane shooter in the UK who should have had his weapons confiscated but the police failed to act and instead of blaming a failure in the system, the government and the people blamed handguns and now no-one can have them.

kelpdiver

***Indeed it does have a smaller population.

I would still argue it is the cultural differences.

You can make a very reasonable argument, but what you can't do is support it by asking how many shootings they've had in Switzerland. The answer appears to be 2 in recent years (2001 - 14 dead, 2013- 4 dead), which would translate to 80 here (and I don't believe we've had that many in the 2000s).

And when the data point is so small, random variation could get you 1 or 3 or even 0 or 4 or 5, so you can't make statistically valid comparisons between the two.

Quote

The general consensus, and forgive me if I am wrong, behind the NRA and gun owners is that a gun is primarily their for the individual. A gun is nothing to do with defending the country from attack but to protect and defend the individual first and foremost. And it is to defend the individual from their own government.

Yes, mostly, but no. The "well regulated" bit is motivated more by concerns of national defense - that it doesn't really help the nation if all it's armed citizens can't shoot for shit. They wanted to ensure proficiency. I don't think it resonated as deeply in the discussion as the fear of tyrannical government, but again there was some salesmanship going on. The Founders feared the mob as much as the mob feared another King George. They already had the failed experiment with the first US government.

[Backintothesky 0]

Indeed there was a shooting in Belgium. Did the shooter use legally or illegally obtained firearms?

Belgium's gun laws are some of the strictest in Europe I believe.

The last school shooting here in France was done by Mohammed Merah the other year. Illegally obtained firearms.

Yes every country has it's nutbags, okay fair enough. But banning guns doesn't stop them.

When was the last time a mass shooting happened in a place where citizens were armed?

Why do they target schools?

Why do they not target NRA conventions?

Or police stations?

Why do shootings happen in cinemas that have "no-carry" policies?

I would argue that a mass shooter doesn't want a firefight, so he will choose a soft target.

These men are cowards and bullies. They don't pick on the people that can fight back, they pick on the "weak" who cannot.

skypuppy

******
I could go on, but guns ARE NOT the problem in the USA. The American psyche is.....

I would say you're wrong on the American psyche being the problem. Every country has their nutbags that should not get their hands on a gun. Wasn't there a mass murder somewhere in Norway a few years back where one guy went bonkers?

What we have is a mental illness problem, and it's a world-wide problem.

I believe there was one in belgium this week...

[winsor 186]

As I suspected at the outset, the guy was on mental fixit medicine.

Better living through chemistry at its finest.

[stayhigh 2]

Shit is working great

Can you imagine if he had hold of extra ammunition magazine?? 50 cal?? Quick magazine eject button???

fuck dude, thank (......) for the gun control law, or otherwise this would've topped the Norwegian massacre.

Gun control works

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[Shotgun 1]

winsor

As I suspected at the outset, the guy was on mental fixit medicine.

Better living through chemistry at its finest.

In my opinion, abusing Xanax (whether prescribed or not) is similar to abusing alcohol or other recreational drugs. Which can certainly affect one's thoughts and behaviors, and no doubt these drugs contribute to many violent crimes.

But I see it as being in a different category than the antidepressant/bipolar meds that are being taken as prescribed. I do think there is a possible link between these meds and violent behavior. Part of the problem being that they can have wildly different effects on different people, and the current way of prescribing them is a bit of a gamble.

Need more info to really have an opinion on this guy though. My non-professional armchair diagnosis is that he seemed to have some kind of narcissistic personality disorder. And it doesn't sound like he was open to help from anyone.

Perhaps if the police had been alerted to the original youtube videos he posted, he could have been required to undergo observation at the least. But who knows.

[regulator 0]

I just bought a springfield armory xdm 9mm with a 19 round magazine. Ill make sure to keep it locked up so it doesnt go on a shooting spree all by itself. Personally I dont give a shit about what happens in california. Ive visited several times and I have no desire to go back.

[regulator 0]

stayhigh

Shit is working great

Can you imagine if he had hold of extra ammunition magazine?? 50 cal?? Quick magazine eject button???

fuck dude, thank (......) for the gun control law, or otherwise this would've topped the Norwegian massacre.

Gun control works

And by all means keep spouting off how much you dont know about firearms like youre a subject matter expert. Its amusing how you illustrate how much you really dont know.

[quade 3]

regulator

And by all means keep spouting off how much you dont know about firearms like youre a subject matter expert. Its amusing how you illustrate how much you really dont know.

Says the man who might be a firearms expert, but probably not a legal nor public policy expert.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[champu 1]

Speaking of new gun control laws...

Quote

(a) Any person may submit an application to the court, on a form designed by the Judicial Council, setting forth the facts and circumstances necessitating that a gun violence restraining order be issued. A gun violence restraining order shall be issued to prohibit a named person from possessing a firearm if an affidavit, signed by the applicant under oath, and any additional information provided to the court demonstrates, to the satisfaction of the court, the named person poses a significant risk of personal injury to himself or herself or others by possessing firearms.

(b) A firearms seizure warrant may not be issued but upon probable cause, supported by an affidavit, naming or describing with reasonable specificity the facts and circumstances justifying the order and listing any firearm or firearms to be seized pursuant to the order.

(c) A firearm described in the firearms seizure warrant may be taken from any place, or from any person in whose possession the firearm may be.

...

(c) In determining whether grounds for a gun violence restraining order exist, the magistrate may consider any of the following:
(1) The reckless use, display, or brandishing of a firearm by the named person.
(2) The history of use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force by the named person against other persons.
(3) Any prior arrest of the named person for a felony offense.
(4) Any history of a violation by the named person of an emergency protective order issued pursuant to Section 646.91 or Part 3 (commencing with Section 6240) of Division 10 of the Family Code.
(5) Any history of a violation by the named person of a protective order issued pursuant to Part 4 (commencing with Section 6300) of Division 10 of the Family Code, Section 136.2, Section 527.6 of the Code of Civil Procedure, or Section 213.5 or 15657.03 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.
(6) Evidence of recent or ongoing abuse of controlled substances or alcohol by the named person.
(7) Evidence of recent acquisition of firearms or other deadly weapons.

...

(a) Except as provided in subdivision (e), not later than 14 days after the execution of a gun violence restraining order and, when applicable, a firearm seizure warrant, the court that issued the order and, when applicable, the seizure warrant, or another court in that same jurisdiction, shall hold a hearing to determine whether the person who is the subject of the order may have under his or her custody or control, own, purchase, possess, or receive firearms and, when applicable, whether any seized firearms should be returned to the person named in the warrant.

(b) At the hearing, the state shall have the burden of proving, by clear and convincing evidence, that the person poses a significant risk of personal injury to himself, herself, or others by owning or possessing the firearm.

[stayhigh 2]

I do own a firearm, I'm surely not an expert at the subject.

But what I do know is that if this kid had an access to fully automatic rifle with large capacity magazine, shotgun with drum type magazines, he would've bought those types of weapon, hell if we were to sell hand grenade he would've bought those as well.

I'm definitely against gun control, just like marijuana policy it really doesn't work.

Don't spew your mouth off like you are the true expert at the subject.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[riggerrob 558]

kelpdiver

*** When it comes to "Well regulated" militias, how do you think our's compares to Switzerland?

Where would I go to join our militia?

you already are a member. But I have no idea how competent (well regulated) you are with a weapon.

..................................................................................

Join the National Guard or the Army Reserve, or the Air Force Reserve, or the Navy Reserve and serve three or more years. All three services do a pretty good job of screening potential gun carriers.
I have served comfortably with thousands of armed professionals (police, military, etc.) but amateurs with guns scare me.

Trivial point: in Canada, the only "militia" serve in the Army Reserve, under same rules as the Regular Army. IOW Canada's militia have always sworn to protect and serve the Queen.

[BartsDaddy 4]

Well stay high every one of those weapon configurations you stated including hand grenades can be legally owned in the USA. Not in every state. But if you have the money to throw away you can find a state that will allow it.
Don't spew your mouth off like you are the true expert at the subject.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[stayhigh 2]

So did the CA state's law that we can't purchase hand grenade worked in this case or not??

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[regulator 0]

stayhigh

I do own a firearm, I'm surely not an expert at the subject.

But what I do know is that if this kid had an access to fully automatic rifle with large capacity magazine, shotgun with drum type magazines, he would've bought those types of weapon, hell if we were to sell hand grenade he would've bought those as well.

I'm definitely against gun control, just like marijuana policy it really doesn't work.

Don't spew your mouth off like you are the true expert at the subject.

Show me how you can fire a .50 BMG out of a moving vehicle and actually hit something WHILE you are driving and I'll change my mind on how assinine your comment was. And I am most definately NOT for marijuana prohibition.

[regulator 0]

stayhigh

I do own a firearm, I'm surely not an expert at the subject.

But what I do know is that if this kid had an access to fully automatic rifle with large capacity magazine, shotgun with drum type magazines, he would've bought those types of weapon, hell if we were to sell hand grenade he would've bought those as well.

I'm definitely against gun control, just like marijuana policy it really doesn't work.

Don't spew your mouth off like you are the true expert at the subject.

I'm not an expert at the subject however my father is and I learned from the best. 45 years LEO and 15 + years as a firearms instructor that trained SWAT and other police. But don't just say this

"But what I do know is that if this kid had an access to fully automatic rifle with large capacity magazine, shotgun with drum type magazines, he would've bought those types of weapon, hell if we were to sell hand grenade he would've bought those as well."

because that makes you seem like you could read his mind. Like you know FOR SURE unquestionably that he would have bought a damn Class 3 weapon and a nuke for christ sakes. I thought skydivers didn't speculate.

[normiss 620]

Are you really that clueless about acquiring weapons?

Ever hear of craigslist?

You can start there, but obtaining anything you want really isn't that difficult. Highly illegal of course, but if you're on a suicidal path of massive destruction, fuck the law.

Why do so many people completely miss the fact that people set on doing something illegal really doesn't care about the existing laws. WTF would piling on more do? Yes, more time on the sentence. But he's dead Jim.