Minimum Wage

[DanG 1]

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Commissions will never work. Liberals hate anything that requires competition because the people who are better at something don't deserve to make more money. They think everyone should be paid the same regardless of job skills. The better you are at something, the more they want taken from you to support those who are not.

Yes, that is exactly what "liberals" think.

- Dan G

[kallend 1,623]

DanG

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Commissions will never work. Liberals hate anything that requires competition because the people who are better at something don't deserve to make more money. They think everyone should be paid the same regardless of job skills. The better you are at something, the more they want taken from you to support those who are not.

Yes, that is exactly what "liberals" think.

Well, to be accurate, it's what idiots think "liberals" think.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

kallend

***

Quote

Commissions will never work. Liberals hate anything that requires competition because the people who are better at something don't deserve to make more money. They think everyone should be paid the same regardless of job skills. The better you are at something, the more they want taken from you to support those who are not.

Yes, that is exactly what "liberals" think.

Well, to be accurate, it's what idiots think "liberals" think.

Yeah, like the "morons"
who think individuals represent all Republicans.

[rehmwa 2]

quade

***Lots of theory and opinion but still no DATA and nothing that could get published in a reputable journal.

Some people here simply do not seem to understand the difference between facts and opinion.

you mean like requesting "DATA" for a predictive social response to a hypothesized economic stimulus?

you can't simplify the economic models, there's too much interference legislated into reality to get any worthwhile predictive result. All you can do is have a bunch of economists argue various alternatives and then pick whichever version your personal bias wants to choose to hear.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[normiss 622]

It's almost laughable how childish both sides are when it comes to blaming the other side, more so when the two are indistinguishable from each other in the long run.
What happened to "US"?

The feeling of self entitlement in our society is a cancer.

[champu 1]

rehmwa

******Lots of theory and opinion but still no DATA and nothing that could get published in a reputable journal.

Some people here simply do not seem to understand the difference between facts and opinion.

you mean like requesting "DATA" for a predictive social response to a hypothesized economic stimulus?

you can't simplify the economic models, there's too much interference legislated into reality to get any worthwhile predictive result. All you can do is have a bunch of economists argue various alternatives and then pick whichever version your personal bias wants to choose to hear.

Trying to isolate out the effects on the overall economy or on a group of people of a single variable like a minimum wage involves adjusting for so many other variables that you're invariably going to wind up "adjusting" yourself into whatever conclusion you're predisposed to believing.

An interesting shift of the burden of proof that I'm seeing here, that I don't think people even realize they're doing, is in proposing a change for the purpose of helping a group of people, and then demanding opponents provide proof that this proposal will do anything but help said group.

[rehmwa 2]

champu

involves adjusting for so many other variables that you're invariably going to wind up "adjusting" yourself into whatever conclusion you're predisposed to believing.

that's pretty much all the threads in Speaker's Corner.

at least this one comes by it honestly - if not blindly

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for the purpose of helping a group of people

I believe that for about 90% of the advocates - and that they are just being obtuse to the long term and overall economic negatives that would overwhelm any 'good intentions'. World is rife with well intentioned disasters by those with inability to think things through to the end. Or that are so falsely panicked that they will ignore long term to justify even the illusion of the short term benefit. (they would feed the bears at the park...)

the other 10% I think are not so kindly minded

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

kallend

******
Can anyone point me to a peer reviewed article in an economics journal that provides evidence (data) showing that raising the minimum wage will result in a loss of jobs. Not theory or opinion, but DATA.

Don't believe we've had any past events where a near 50% increase was enacted.

In any event, isn't the burden of proof in the other direction? Shouldn't the SIEU prove that this won't fall under basic supply/demand graphs?

NO, the burden of proof is on those who make the claim.

And right now the claim is from the right that raising the minimum wage will destroy jobs.

Where's the data to support that claim?

The obvious burden of proof is on those proposing a change involving billions of dollars. Their claim is the one that impacts everyone. And as GM and others point out, it should be obvious that there is a limit to how much you can increase the min wage without a negative consequence. Is 50% already over that threshold?

If the proposal were instead to tie the federal minimum wage to an annual COLA to match Social Security, I think you could argue the burden is more equally shared.

[kelpdiver 2]

Coreece

I still think an increase to 9-10/hr will take a large chunk of the profits, but believe that owners/managers are smart enough to find creative ways to make up the difference. Perhaps putting an extreme emphasis on "up-selling" could make up the difference alone? (which IMO, they should be doing already)

McDonald's has been fairly ingenious with methods of cost cutting and profit building, though I can't say it's been a good result for society at large. Now I suspect these happened regardless of min wage laws, so I'm not blaming it for these outcomes.

-Pink slime and other sources of cheap "meat" increase health risk.
-Rain forest attack in the Amazon to produce more cheap beef
-the contribution to obesity of the Super Sized meals

On the more positive side, they've also been a market leader in process inprovement/efficiencies, so they're able to handle a higher customer load for the name number of employees than other fast food chains.

[Coreece 190]

kelpdiver

***
I still think an increase to 9-10/hr will take a large chunk of the profits, but believe that owners/managers are smart enough to find creative ways to make up the difference. Perhaps putting an extreme emphasis on "up-selling" could make up the difference alone? (which IMO, they should be doing already)

McDonald's has been fairly ingenious with methods of cost cutting and profit building, though I can't say it's been a good result for society at large. Now I suspect these happened regardless of min wage laws, so I'm not blaming it for these outcomes.

-Pink slime and other sources of cheap "meat" increase health risk.
-Rain forest attack in the Amazon to produce more cheap beef
-the contribution to obesity of the Super Sized meals

I'm more of a fan of the "up-selling" - extra cheese, apple pies, milkshakes, 50 cents for extra sauce - all that...super sized, mega sized, Ronald sized...hell, even Grimace sized for happy meals.

Now if they were to pay 9-10/hr, perhaps it would open the window for more qualified employees who take pride in their work. They'd have the skill, enthusiasm and pride to actually up-sell consistently and efficiently...

However, this could support the idea how minimum wage "will increase unemployment among workers without a high school education (by approximately two percentage points), increase unemployment among workers without high school diplomas in general (by approximately one percentage point), and have no effect on unemployment among college-educated workers," which I suppose kind of defeats the purpose of minimum wage?

Personally, I think it would be best to keep the current gradual increase in minimum wage over several years, rather than jacking it up so dramatically...and especially not 50% as you've stated.

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On the more positive side, they've also been a market leader in process inprovement/efficiencies, so they're able to handle a higher customer load for the name number of employees than other fast food chains.

I have doubts about their perceived efficiency...Mcdonalds monitors drive-thu orders from the time they're placed till the time they leave the pick-up window, however, they'll often ask customers to pull up front and wait by the door. (instead of being monitored.) Some franchises even have at least 3 designated parking spots where an employee will not only have to walk your order just outside the door, but across the parking lot to your designated waiting area. I find this to be extremely inefficient and misleading...perhaps even a liability.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

turtlespeed

***

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Simplest answer is to make everyone work for a commission.

How much commission for selling a McRib?

Some.

Why? those things sell themselves...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[turtlespeed 212]

Gravitymaster

Commissions will never work. Liberals hate anything that requires competition because the people who are better at something don't deserve to make more money. They think everyone should be paid the same regardless of job skills. The better you are at something, the more they want taken from you to support those who are not.

Ah . . . well . . . not exactly.

They WANT to believe that but their own greed gets in the way to implement the philosophy in their own lives.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Coreece 190]

Iago

But seeing people demand enough to support their lifestyles instead of basing their lifestyle on what they can earn bothers me greatly.

...and given what capitalism has seemed to become in the minds of big business men, can you blame them?

The corporations are reaping what they sow...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[BIGUN 1,053]

normiss

It's almost laughable how childish both sides are when it comes to blaming the other side, more so when the two are indistinguishable from each other in the long run.
What happened to "US"?.

Mark, in the future it would appreciated if you kept things on a more emotional than logical level. If we don't have the left vs. right arguments; why whatever would become of SC?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Gravitymaster 0]

BIGUN

***It's almost laughable how childish both sides are when it comes to blaming the other side, more so when the two are indistinguishable from each other in the long run.
What happened to "US"?.

Mark, in the future it would appreciated if you kept things on a more emotional than logical level. If we don't have the left vs. right arguments; why whatever would become of SC? It's a tough job, but someone's gotta do it.

[billvon 2,396]

>Now if they were to pay 9-10/hr, perhaps it would open the window for more
>qualified employees who take pride in their work. They'd have the skill, enthusiasm
>and pride to actually up-sell consistently and efficiently...

But unfortunately that would mean that McDonald's would have to raise their prices, which would mean fewer people going there and fewer people employed by McDonalds. To your point, those people might be happier, but the rest of the former employees (without the skill, enthusiasm, pride etc) would be even more unemployable.

[Coreece 190]

billvon

>Now if they were to pay 9-10/hr, perhaps it would open the window for more
>qualified employees who take pride in their work. They'd have the skill, enthusiasm
>and pride to actually up-sell consistently and efficiently...

But unfortunately that would mean that McDonald's would have to raise their prices, which would mean fewer people going there and fewer people employed by McDonalds.

Why would they have to jack prices if efficient, higher paid employees are bringing in more profit than inefficient, lower paid employees?

Franchise Owner: "Man, I really thought that minimum wage hike to $9/hr was gonna kill us, but now we have efficient employees who can sell more and provide better service. Our profits are just as good if not better....How about we capitalize on this - lets jack the prices and blow it all to hell."

billvon

To your point, those people might be happier, but the rest of the former employees (without the skill, enthusiasm, pride etc) would be even more unemployable.

Perhaps they would be better suited for jobs that don't require skills in sales and customer service...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[billvon 2,396]

>Why would they have to jack prices if efficient, higher paid employees are
>bringing in more profit than inefficient, lower paid employees?

Because they have to pay their employees more. That is the largest cost in most such franchises. If they bring in more even with the higher prices, great; but again you are moving out of the "cheapest food" category into the "better service" category, and that would be a new niche for McDonald's. Can McDonald's start competing with the In and Outs? Maybe - but that's definitely not for sure.

>"Man, I really thought that minimum wage hike to $9/hr was gonna kill us, but now
>we have efficient employees who can sell more and provide better service. Our
>profits are just as good if not better....How about we capitalize on this - lets jack
>the prices and blow it all to hell."

"Man, it's great that our stores are cleaner, and the staff more friendly, and the customers happier. But even now that we have more customers I'm still losing money compared to that guy down the street. Hmm. Since I have more customers I can charge a little more, and even if I lose a few customers - we still have more than we can handle. I'll make more money AND have fewer over-capacity crowds. Goodbye value meals!"

>Perhaps they would be better suited for jobs that don't require skills in sales and
>customer service...

Right. You have just removed an option for them. And such people generally don't have a lot of options to begin with. It is certain that a larger percentage of them will end up unemployed.

[rehmwa 2]

Coreece

Franchise Owner: "Man, I really thought that minimum wage hike to $9/hr was gonna kill us, but now we have efficient employees who can sell more and provide better service. Our profits are just as good if not better....How about we capitalize on this - lets jack the prices and blow it all to hell."...

the assumption here is that they haven't already considered it and done the cost/benefit analysis

so the government would have to force it on them......for their own good


this is nothing but intrusion on a negotiation that both the employer and employee already have the ability to do without the government sticking their noses into it - it's lip service the fact that many think that people don't have the stones to ask for what they think they are worth

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,396]

>Only about 5% of the workforce earns minimum wage. The impacts from a
>boost would be minimal at best.

Definitely agreed, but that 5% tends to cluster in the entry level fast food jobs (as an example.) So while you might affect 5% of the populace, you would affect 50% or more of McDonald's workers. As an example, the US minimum wage is $7.25 an hour; average McDonald's salaries are $7.77 an hour. Thus even raising it to $8 would impact most of their workers.

[Coreece 190]

billvon

>Perhaps they would be better suited for jobs that don't require skills in sales and
>customer service...

Right. You have just removed an option for them. And such people generally don't have a lot of options to begin with. It is certain that a larger percentage of them will end up unemployed.

They will be unemployed temporarily. I think you'd have to allow time for the transition to see how this would ultimately impact the overall unemployment rate for this segment of the population.

If you have a mildly educated 40 year-old who is already making 9/hr breaking his back on the docks, all of a sudden Mcdonalds is looking more attractive to him...He would simply trade in his back brace for an apron, while the young uneducated stud at Mcdonalds takes his place on the docks.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

rehmwa

***Franchise Owner: "Man, I really thought that minimum wage hike to $9/hr was gonna kill us, but now we have efficient employees who can sell more and provide better service. Our profits are just as good if not better....How about we capitalize on this - lets jack the prices and blow it all to hell."...

the assumption here is that they haven't already considered it and done the cost/benefit analysis

so the government would have to force it on them......for their own good

My comments aren't so much an argument to actually raise the minimum wage so dramatically, as they are to suggest that it may not be the end of the world if it were forced on them.

rehmwa

this is nothing but intrusion on a negotiation that both the employer and employee already have the ability to do without the government sticking their noses into it - it's lip service the fact that many think that people don't have the stones to ask for what they think they are worth

or maybe they just don't have the negotiating skills...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[billvon 2,396]

>They will be unemployed temporarily. I think you'd have to allow time for the
>transition to see how this would ultimately impact the overall unemployment rate
>for this segment of the population.

OK. What do you think would cause his re-employment?

>If you have a mildly educated 40 year-old who is already making 9/hr breaking his
>back on the docks, all of a sudden Mcdonalds is looking more attractive to
>him...He would simply trade in his back brace for an apron, while the young
>uneducated stud at Mcdonalds takes his place on the docks.

Why would the young uneducated stud abandon his new job right after he got a hefty raise? Surely if he was willing to work it at $7.25 an hour he will be more willing to work it at $8 an hour.

If anything, paying the young guy $7.25 an hour is MORE incentive for him to abandon the job and take the $9 an hour job. Give him a raise and most of that incentive goes away. (The dock worker might also now want his job, but you don't hire people based on their desire, you hire them based on your needs.)

[rehmwa 2]

Coreece

*** - it's lip service the fact that many think that people don't have the stones to ask for what they think they are worth

or maybe they just don't have the negotiating skills...

Same thing conceptually, I have a higher opinion of people being able to develop the skills to live their lives without big brother spoon feeding them against their will

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Coreece 190]

billvon

>They will be unemployed temporarily. I think you'd have to allow time for the
>transition to see how this would ultimately impact the overall unemployment rate
>for this segment of the population.

OK. What do you think would cause his re-employment?

Well, as I said...since the young uneducated stud was fired from Mcdonalds for not living up to their new standards of customer service/up-selling for 9/hr, he would switch places with the old mildly educated dock worker who does.

The uneducated stud that was working for Mcdonalds still gets his "raise" because of the value of his muscle at the docks, and the old mildly educated dock worker keeps his current wage by using his brain that is now valued by mcdonalds, thus saving his old breaking back.

billvon

Why would the young uneducated stud abandon his new job right after he got a hefty raise?

He wouldn't...he would get fired because he lacked the customer service skills, remember? He is part of those uneducated workers that you said would be unemployed.

billvon

If anything, paying the young guy $7.25 an hour is MORE incentive for him to abandon the job and take the $9 an hour job.

Not necessarily, prior to a minimum wage hike, those dock jobs for 9/hr would've been much harder to come by. They would've already been filled, some by even old mildly educated guys willing to break their backs rather than settle for $7.25 at Mcdonalds, that is, until Mcdonalds pays 9/hr.

Furthermore, With Mcdonalds out of the way and competing in the "better service" industry trying earn their profits, it opens up the market for the "cheaper food" industry allowing small businesses who aren't as greedy to offer cheap food at cheap prices for a modest profit whereas Mcdonalds was offering cheap food, for cheap prices for "top-heavy" profits at their employees expense.

I prefer the balance.

McDonalds is doing something wrong...In order for them to have made their current profit level, they have either over-worked their employees, or they have over-employed, thus reducing everyone's hours to shit, which is why it's Mcdonald's employees who are the ones complaining on TV rather than other minimum wage workers in the retail and accommodations industries, right?

All of this aside...if uneducated, inefficient workers suffer disemployment due to minimum wage increases in a society where there are more people than jobs, shouldn't it be the uneducated, inefficient workers who are the ones without jobs and benefiting from government assistance rather than the more educated and efficient workers?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...