Minimum Wage

[turtlespeed 212]

Stumpy

*********So why the fuck did I spend all that money all college and take an entry level position at an oil and gas company to make (possibly) less than a McDonalds worker?

The difference is that your job has a potential for progression. Work hard and minimum wage will soon be a distant memory. The Maccas worker - not so much.

Can you . . . rather, are you allowed to do your own home repair or addition?

huh? What you talking about willis?

I was talking to an Australian, and maybe I was being fed a load of crap, but, as I understood what she was articulating to me:
1) No maintenance or modification is allowed unless you hire a contractor.
2) Simple things like changing light bulbs you can do, but that's about it.
3) Inspections are done to see that the rules are followed
4) All homes are essentially owned by the state.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Coreece 189]

billvon

>I guess my question is how do you determine what the employees are worth?

The empirical way is to put an ad in the paper for $1 an hour and keep increasing it until you get enough employees. At that point you are paying them what they are worth (as decided by employers.)

Then it becomes a question of whether or not it's ethical to take advantage of those desperate enough to work at the lowest wage possible.

For those capitalists with a foresight beyond the horizon viewed from their yacht, it becomes not only a question of ethics, but a question of consistency, sustainability and perhaps even social responsibility from which they'll ultimately benefit.

billvon

If you were underpaying them they would leave and go to better jobs.

Not necessarily...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 189]

Quote

my boss always reminds me when i get uppity that the graveyard is full of indispensable people.

...perhaps you should remind him that when he finally joins the resting place of such nobility, it was his employees that allowed him the stature of such honor.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[billvon 2,384]

>Then it becomes a question of whether or not it's ethical to take advantage of
>those desperate enough to work at the lowest wage possible.

Well, if the choice is hiring three people for $10 an hour (and giving them less work to do) or the two best for $15 an hour (and giving them more work to do) I'd argue that it's more ethical to hire all three, and thus employ the otherwise-unhirable guy.

(Hiring all three for $15 would be even better, of course, but in general a company that spends more on labor it needs to rapidly goes out of business.)

>Not necessarily...

Well, not if they are on the bottom of the food chain and cannot do anything else. In such cases hiring them for $10 an hour is a lot better than not hiring but hiring their friends for $15.

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

Because the FACT is he offers zero in way of facts to support his argument.

Sounds like your opinion, quade.
Why shouldn't the minimum wage be $1MM/hour?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

...are you allowed to do your own home repair or addition?

As long as the local town's tax assessor doesn't see a dumpster in front of your house. Just ask Andrew Cuomo's girlfriend... BTW, Andrew Cuomo is the current governor of NY State.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

If a company is making ridiculous profits...

So, you are talking Apple, Google, etc., ...right? How do you define ridiculous profits?

Quote

do you feel an employee should share in the companies loses?

Well, that's commonly referred to as a "partner". And those guys go through hell and back to make it. Employees never experience that kind of long term uncertainty, unless the company goes under. It's commonly referred to as "risk-reward", and it's essential to the growth of the private economy. Where else does a government get its money from, if not from taxing company profits and employee pay?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

Which is worth more to you as a consumer. Which do you value more;

Wow, you actually do seem to believe in market choice.

Quote

If the company can't make a product as good as their competitor for the same price, then they sometimes determine the "best" way to address that is to fuck with their employees and get their profits that way.

Now, you're getting into liberal cognitive dissonance, again. Why wouldn't those employees go down the street and get a job there?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

...take advantage of those desperate enough to work at the lowest wage possible.

Like, in North Korea?

We are all engines of karma

[quade 3]

StreetScooby

Quote

Because the FACT is he offers zero in way of facts to support his argument.

Sounds like your opinion, quade.

Uhm . . . watch the video?

He presents no facts; only his opinions.

That's not an opinion on my part.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

Uhm . . . watch the video?

He presents no facts; only his opinions.

That's not an opinion on my part.

Yes, I did watch the video, and many others of his. His facts were actually presented in the many, many papers he published. And, those papers have been widely referenced by other accomplished economists. So, your statement is an opinion on your part, and an uninformed one at that.

Milton Friedman

And that's just a simple starting point for you...

BTW, you didn't answer my question...
Why shouldn't the minimum wage be $1MM/hour?

We are all engines of karma

[Amazon 7]

quade

***

Quote

Because the FACT is he offers zero in way of facts to support his argument.

Sounds like your opinion, quade.

Uhm . . . watch the video?

He presents no facts; only his opinions.

That's not an opinion on my part.

As someone upthread posted... correctly... Henry Ford knew the secret to prosperity was to provide a living wage to his workers. It also allowed them to be able to afford the products they make.

Bring that forward to today.. if we want a functioning economy in a consumer based economy, people need to be paid a living wage. The conservative ploy to return us to the gilded age, to had over for pennies on the dollar, to the oligarchs of our public lands will not provide anything but larger land holdings for those who have so much already.

Paying workers a living wage gives them skin in the game.. a stake in our society.. do a good job... have some pride in what you do... even if it is only pushing burgers out the window.

[Amazon 7]

StreetScooby

Quote

Uhm . . . watch the video?

He presents no facts; only his opinions.

That's not an opinion on my part.

Yes, I did watch the video, and many others of his. His facts were actually presented in the many, many papers he published. And, those papers have been widely referenced by other accomplished economists. So, your statement is an opinion on your part, and an uninformed one at that.

Milton Friedman

And that's just a simple starting point for you...

BTW, you didn't answer my question...
Why shouldn't the minimum wage be $1MM/hour?

Perhaps because it is nothing more than a silly looking strawman.

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

Perhaps because it is nothing more than a silly looking strawman

strawman

noun
1. a person used as a cover for some questionable activity [syn: front man]
2. a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted [syn: straw man]
3. an effigy in the shape of a man to frighten birds away from seeds [syn: scarecrow]

Let's assume you're using strawman per definition #2. If that's the case, you should be able to easily refute my simple question - why shouldn't minimum wage be $1MM/hour, other than calling it a "strawman". Can you?

We are all engines of karma

[Amazon 7]

StreetScooby

Quote

Perhaps because it is nothing more than a silly looking strawman

strawman

noun
1. a person used as a cover for some questionable activity [syn: front man]
2. a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted [syn: straw man]
3. an effigy in the shape of a man to frighten birds away from seeds [syn: scarecrow]

Let's assume you're using strawman per definition #2. If that's the case, you should be able to easily refute my simple question - why shouldn't minimum wage be $1MM/hour, other than calling it a "strawman". Can you?

It does not warrant a serious response... you can't do better than that to fantasize some wildly specious argument

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

It does not warrant a serious response... you can't do better than that to fantasize some wildly specious argument

So, you can't? That's ok, doesn't make you a bad person.

We are all engines of karma

[Coreece 189]

billvon

in general a company that spends more on labor it needs to rapidly goes out of business.

Well, that's not reasonable.

I've already stated that $10/hr for McDonald's employees is not reasonable. It may be doable, but I think it's "unethical" for the employees to expect that given the hard earned $750,000 liquid investment of the franchise owner.

However, $15/hr would most certainly solve America's obesity problem...

billvon

Quote

>Then it becomes a question of whether or not it's ethical to take advantage of
>those desperate enough to work at the lowest wage possible.

Well, if the choice is hiring three people for $10 an hour (and giving them less work to do) or the two best for $15 an hour (and giving them more work to do) I'd argue that it's more ethical to hire all three, and thus employ the otherwise-unhirable guy.

I've basically said that Mcdonalds could solve it's problem by firing 30% of it's workers and then giving the rest of it's employees more hours with a more consistent schedule to boost income and morale, thus making their employees happier and less likely to strike/protest.

So I suppose that by my logic you would consider that to be unethical too...point taken.

So what now?
What do you think about this idea of "social capitalism?"

Also, just another side issue with "erratic scheduling"
What is it with all these companies hiring more people at 10-25 hours a week? It seems like they cut everyone's hours in half and doubled the amount of employees. Is this something new, or has it always been. I always remembered people working 40 hours in a consistent shift. Is there an incentive for businesses to do this? Is there a benefit for companies that superficially jack up the unemployment rate?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 189]

StreetScooby

Quote

...take advantage of those desperate enough to work at the lowest wage possible.

Like, in North Korea?

I could easily outsource my $25-$50/hr post production work to India, Romania, Philippines, etc. for about $5-$10/hr with a couple clicks of the mouse and a few uploads, but I won't do it. You tend to get what you pay for.

If I could find a few people overseas with the ability to produce the quality I want for 5-10/hr, then I might consider it, but only if it would allow me the time and money to invest it into my other small (tiny) business of providing home improvement services for the Elderly and property owners who offer housing assistance for low income tenants typically living in homeowner's associations where various home improvements are forced upon members who don't necessarily have the funds to pay the big dog contractors...

I recently had a crisis of conscience where I was contemplating becoming one of those big dog contractors, thus defeating the purpose of starting the business in the first place. One night at the Saloon, I confided in an old wise man from Merrill Lynch...I told him about my dilemma...he said, "you can't get so emotional...you can't care about these people...none of them. The minute you start thinking that you're gonna be some type of savior of the community, then you're done...you're just done..."

After a few choice words, I kindly thanked him for his honesty and clarity....he told me exactly what I needed to hear...I then happily stomped out of that hell-hole in great disdain of his business model...been sleeping like a baby ever since.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jgoose71 0]

Actually, nothing raises minimum wage like a 2% unemployment rate. If people don't know the factors that make prices/pay rise and fall, I don't know what to say.

Unfortunately, all low skill manufacturing/ factory jobs that typically sucked up everyone with just a highschool education or less are now gone.

I like the plan of lowering/fixing the tax code and scrapping unneeded regulations that raise the cost of doing business in the U.S to get some of these jobs to come back. It would do a lot to fix the economy.

I also blame NAFTA. I place it in the same pile as Keynesian Economics, a failed experiment.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Coreece 189]

Quote

Henry Ford knew the secret to prosperity was to provide a living wage to his workers.

"If everyone is moving forward together, then success takes care of itself." - Henry Ford

"You will find men who want to be carried on the shoulders of others, who think that the world owes them a living. They don't seem to see that we must all lift together and pull together." - Henry Ford

"Most people spend more time and energy going around problems than in trying to solve them" - Henry Ford

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Amazon 7]

Coreece

Quote

Henry Ford knew the secret to prosperity was to provide a living wage to his workers.

"If everyone is moving forward together, then success takes care of itself." - Henry Ford

"You will find men who want to be carried on the shoulders of others, who think that the world owes them a living. They don't seem to see that we must all lift together and pull together." - Henry Ford

"Most people spend more time and energy going around problems than in trying to solve them" - Henry Ford

Together... not I got mine............... Fuck the rest of yall

[Coreece 189]

Amazon

***

Quote

Henry Ford knew the secret to prosperity was to provide a living wage to his workers.

"If everyone is moving forward together, then success takes care of itself." - Henry Ford

"You will find men who want to be carried on the shoulders of others, who think that the world owes them a living. They don't seem to see that we must all lift together and pull together." - Henry Ford

"Most people spend more time and energy going around problems than in trying to solve them" - Henry Ford

Together... not I got mine............... Fuck the rest of yall

Don't give me any of that do goody good bullshit...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Amazon 7]

Coreece

******

Quote

Henry Ford knew the secret to prosperity was to provide a living wage to his workers.

"If everyone is moving forward together, then success takes care of itself." - Henry Ford

"You will find men who want to be carried on the shoulders of others, who think that the world owes them a living. They don't seem to see that we must all lift together and pull together." - Henry Ford

"Most people spend more time and energy going around problems than in trying to solve them" - Henry Ford

Together... not I got mine............... Fuck the rest of yall

Don't give me any of that do goody good bullshit...

I feel sorry for those who can only think of themselves with no thought what so ever to those around them..

What a sad and lonely world they live in.

[Stumpy 256]

turtlespeed

************So why the fuck did I spend all that money all college and take an entry level position at an oil and gas company to make (possibly) less than a McDonalds worker?

The difference is that your job has a potential for progression. Work hard and minimum wage will soon be a distant memory. The Maccas worker - not so much.

Can you . . . rather, are you allowed to do your own home repair or addition?

huh? What you talking about willis?

I was talking to an Australian, and maybe I was being fed a load of crap, but, as I understood what she was articulating to me:
1) No maintenance or modification is allowed unless you hire a contractor.
2) Simple things like changing light bulbs you can do, but that's about it.
3) Inspections are done to see that the rules are followed
4) All homes are essentially owned by the state.

turtlespeed

************So why the fuck did I spend all that money all college and take an entry level position at an oil and gas company to make (possibly) less than a McDonalds worker?

The difference is that your job has a potential for progression. Work hard and minimum wage will soon be a distant memory. The Maccas worker - not so much.

Can you . . . rather, are you allowed to do your own home repair or addition?

huh? What you talking about willis?

I was talking to an Australian, and maybe I was being fed a load of crap, but, as I understood what she was articulating to me:
1) No maintenance or modification is allowed unless you hire a contractor.
2) Simple things like changing light bulbs you can do, but that's about it.
3) Inspections are done to see that the rules are followed
4) All homes are essentially owned by the state.

Hmmm - sounds unlikely but i can't say for sure - not sure about the Aussie market. From a quick Google it appears there are state owned homes like in the UK, but its only 304,000 out of 7.1 million.
Here - you need consent to do major alterations, and if you do any serious plumbing/electrical you need someone to sign it off (The sign off and code of compliance stuff only really becomes a problem when you want to sell) - but I do loads of stuff on my own house, and the state certainly doesn't own it.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[jgoose71 0]

Amazon

*********

Quote

Henry Ford knew the secret to prosperity was to provide a living wage to his workers.

"If everyone is moving forward together, then success takes care of itself." - Henry Ford

"You will find men who want to be carried on the shoulders of others, who think that the world owes them a living. They don't seem to see that we must all lift together and pull together." - Henry Ford

"Most people spend more time and energy going around problems than in trying to solve them" - Henry Ford

Together... not I got mine............... Fuck the rest of yall

Don't give me any of that do goody good bullshit...

I feel sorry for those who can only think of themselves with no thought what so ever to those around them..

What a sad and lonely world they live in.

At the same time, a business that is out of business does not employ anyone.

The assembly line allowed Ford to build enough autos in a short enough time to turn a profit without working his employees into the ground in during an 18 hour day.

Without it, he would have had to treat his employees just like Rockefeller to get his company going. There is a thin line sometimes between sinner and saint.

Now a days the same innovation that brought us the assembly line is replacing people all together.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything