Jesus Saves

[RonD1120 58]

masterblaster72

I'm sure you're familiar with the fundamental problem that the Bible can be interpreted in numerous ways -- that's how we have all these Christian splinter groups to begin with. Your particular group is a result of just one interpretation. Being that you believe he's still alive, do you really think Jesus is pleased with all this chaos and division in his name?

NO!

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Coreece 190]

RonD1120

Many evangelicals and mostly Baptists believe we are to go into the world and save souls.

I believe that only the Holy Spirit leads the heart of someone to salvation. The decision rests with the individual.

Sorry Ron, while I was responding to thunderbow, I was bombarded with distractions and had to step away for a minute and didn't notice your reply after I finished...

But I agree....

My only experience with evangelicals who seem to believe that they can save people seems to be limited to new believers in their 20's, many of which somehow managed to land leadership roles in their church.

Now I don't know if these kids literally believed that they were actually saving people themselves, but there certainly seemed to be a sense of "zeal without knowledge," (Proverbs 19) and how new believers who become teachers can get all puffed up. (1 Timothy 3)

In most cases, they seemed to have grown out of it.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

Now, in addition to the Anathemas listed with regard to the Eucharist, you will also see Anathemas regarding the Mass.

Catholicism says that the Mass is a sacrifice and that it's necessary for propitiation. It's essentially the same sacrifice as Christs crucifixion. Catholicism believes that this sacrifice needs to continually be performed for the forgiveness of sin, but scripture is quite clear on this issue:

Hebrews 10:10
"...And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God..."

In a sense, it seems that the Catholic priesthood is mimicking Judaism by playing the high priest, but instead of sacrificing animals which can never take away sin, they "sacrifice" Jesus repeatedly at Mass.

It is my understanding that the parts you put in bold were added into the King James Bible and are not present in the original Greek texts.

Verses not found in the earliest manuscripts such as john 8-11 for example, are typically noted as such in most bibles.

Hebrews 10:10-12 that I quoted are not some of those verses. They are found in many of the earlier manuscripts including the earliest such as p13 (Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 657) and p46 (Chester Beatty II) which date back to 200-250 AD.

The entire book of Hebrews has a 98.3% word for word accuracy with about 86 words in question. Two of those words are found in the verses I provided but they are not the ones I emphasized.

The two words in question are "body vs. blood" and "priest" vs. "high priest" - no big deal.

The words I emphasized are:
Ephapax: once for all
Dienekes: carried through, continuous

They are also used in the following verses:
Hebrews 9:12
he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Hebrews 10:1
For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

I think the literal translation of "Dienekes" is quite remarkable with regard to this subject. It says "carried through, continuous"

Christ's Sacrifice has been carried through and is continuous, so there is no reason for priests to "sacrifice" Jesus repeatedly on the Altar.

These verses are absolutely clear and the context only emphasizes the point, therefore I maintain that Catholicism, at least on paper, resembles a legalistic, quasi form of Judaism.

But I wouldn't extend this belief to those in the Catholic Church. Christ warned people about the religious leaders of his day and I'm just trying to "draw the line" to today's leaders.

Luke 20:46
"Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets.

Quote

What, to your mind, makes Catholicism a "completely different religion"?

The main ones for me are:
-The Sacrificial Mass
-Transubstantiation
-The idea of a mediatrix/co-redemptrix

Disonorable mentions:
-Purgatory
-Indulgences

Quote

I am unaware of any papal edicts that Jesus is no longer to be followed, and that Bob the Boatbuilder is the new Messia, for example.

But the Catholic Church adds extra biblical and unnecessary doctrine/rituals, that in my opinion undermine the significance of Christ and draws attention away from him, either directly or indirectly.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

But the Catholic Church adds extra biblical and unnecessary doctrine/rituals, that in my opinion undermine the significance of Christ and draws attention away from him, either directly or indirectly.

Fair enough, so Catholicism is not your favorite flavor of Christianity. It's not surprising that elements of Judasim would be more prominent in the Catholic faith, as that faith grew directly out of Judaism. Jesus would certainly have considered himself to be a Jew, and did followers of Jesus for the first couple of centuries. Really, it was the Romans who first made a big deal of differentiating between Jews and followers of Christ. However, the basic premise of the faith, that salvation can only be had through submission to God, and God can only be approached through Jesus, and belief in the Trinity, is all the same as what Baptists, Presbyterians, and all the rest believe. Everything else seems to me to be side issues of ritual and history.

I'm sure others could do a better job than I of defending Catholicism, as I have not practiced it or any religion for 30 years. The doctrine of transubstantiation never made sense to me, not on legalistic grounds but just because I could see that the host remained "bread" and the communion wine was not blood. However, the Mass is in large part a reenactment of the Last Supper in every Christian service I have attended, and I'm quite sure the Catholic tradition is not in any way predicated on a belief that Jesus' sacrifice was temporary and has to be repeated to remain in effect. Your argument making a ritual reenactment of the Last Supper into a denial that Jesus' sacrifice was "for all time" seems to me to be legalistic hair splitting.

Other issues you note seem to me to be equally legalistic hair splitting. It is true that no Biblical passage specifically mentions Purgatory, but the concept of some state between this world and Heaven is (as I understand it, and as I said I'm not the best one to explain it) logically required for two reasons. First, several passages in the old and the new testament advocate praying for the dead. If the dead are in heaven they don't need prayers, and if they are in hell prayers can't help them as they are permanently damned, so there must be some state, neither heaven nor hell, where prayers can be helpful. Why else would the Bible tell us to pray for the dead? The second argument is that all humans are burdened by sin, at least to some extent, yet one must be clean of any sin to enter the presence of God. By this logic, no-one has ever made it to Heaven and every human who has ever lived and died is in hell. The only logical alternative is that there is some intermediate state where slightly imperfect souls can repent of their minor transgressions and be cleaned up before entering Heaven. As I recall Catholics also believe (or believed, I'm not sure if it's still taught) in another state, Limbo, for souls of children who died before baptism, and people who were basically good but never heard of Jesus. Again, this was a logical construct to deal with the question of what happens to people who never have the opportunity to accept Jesus or be baptized. The alternative would seem to be that they go to hell, even though they haven't actually done anything to reject Jesus. I don't know how your flavor of Christianity deals with these issues, but it seems to me you must either have something similar (although you may call it by a different name), or you believe that everyone including babies who die in childbirth goes to Hell.

I hope someone more familiar with the issues can speak up, because I'm not very comfortable discussing things I no longer believe based on things I learned as a child. I just find it strange that people really believe Catholics are not Christian based on such legalistic differences. That's an argument that I never heard when I lived in Europe or Canada; it seems to be unique to American evangelicals, and (it seems to me) goes back to politics (anti-Irish, anti-Italian etc sentiments) more than theology.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[masterblaster72 0]

RonD1120

***

I'm sure you're familiar with the fundamental problem that the Bible can be interpreted in numerous ways -- that's how we have all these Christian splinter groups to begin with. Your particular group is a result of just one interpretation. Being that you believe he's still alive, do you really think Jesus is pleased with all this chaos and division in his name?

NO!

Well apparently you're part of the problem. Like I said, these various groups all believe in their exclusive right to enter the pearly gates, so obviously someone is fucking up. My guess is each and every one of them.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[RonD1120 58]

masterblaster72

******

I'm sure you're familiar with the fundamental problem that the Bible can be interpreted in numerous ways -- that's how we have all these Christian splinter groups to begin with. Your particular group is a result of just one interpretation. Being that you believe he's still alive, do you really think Jesus is pleased with all this chaos and division in his name?

NO!

Well apparently you're part of the problem. Like I said, these various groups all believe in their exclusive right to enter the pearly gates, so obviously someone is fucking up. My guess is each and every one of them.

I'll own that. Whenever someone disagrees with someone else, each is a problem to the other.

Only God knows which Christians will enter His heaven. Christianity is the path.

Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

Philippians 2:
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Obedience is better than sacrifice.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

kallend

***If it would ease your tension, let me also state that I personally know some Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Methodists and Baptists who are Christians.

And I personally know a number of self-professed "Christians" who completely ignore the teachings of Jesus as found in Matthew 5-7.

Oswald Chambers provided a very good explanation this morning.

Quote

The Spontaneity Of Love
04302014
Love suffereth long, and is kind . . . — 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Love is not premeditated, it is spontaneous, i.e., it bursts up in extraordinary ways. There is nothing of mathematical certainty in Paul’s category of love. We cannot say – "Now I am going to think no evil; I am going to believe all things." The characteristic of love is spontaneity. We do not set the statements of Jesus in front of us as a standard; but when His Spirit is having His way with us, we live according to His standard with out knowing it, and on looking back we are amazed at the disinterestedness of a particular emotion, which is the evidence that the spontaneity of real love was there. In everything to do with the life of God in us, its nature is only discerned when it is past.

The springs of love are in God, not in us. It is absurd to look for the love of God in our hearts naturally, it is only there when it has been shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

If we try to prove to God how much we love Him, it is a sure sign that we do not love Him. The evidence of our love for Him is the absolute spontaneity of our love, it comes naturally. In looking back we cannot tell why we did certain things, we did them according to the spontaneous nature of His love in us. The life of God manifests itself in this spontaneous way because the springs of love are in the Holy Ghost. (Romans 5:5.)

Emphasis mine

Our walk in Christ is a path of increasing maturity. We don't get it all at once, we grow in it.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

I have noticed over the years that you cannot avoid a discussion regarding the belief in God. You have admitted now that you were raised Roman Catholic and then decided it was not for you. In general, God and Jesus Christ was not for you. And yet, here you are again.

I submit to you for your contemplation, the Holy Spirit is dealing with you and courting your return to the Lord. He is showing you the cross.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

In general I am curious about people, what they believe and why they believe it. I have no problem if people have a strong belief in God, but for me I cannot see evidence of a personal God. If God exists, why is there so much unnecessary suffering in the world, not suffering due to actions of other people (that might be explained by "free will") but random things like earthquakes, malaria, and on and on. The "it's all part of God's plan, which we cannot hope to understand" argument seems hopelessly circular and self-serving to me. A hands-off God who started the "Big Bang" and then sat back and let things take their own course is equally unsatisfactory, and unnecessary.

God is not necessary to explain the good that people do, nor is the devil necessary to explain evil.

Hope you didn't get hit too bad by this weather. Around here we got only a few showers, nothing like the 4-5 inches of rain that was forecast.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[kallend 1,623]

RonD1120

the Holy Spirit is dealing with you and courting your return to the Lord. He is showing you the cross.

Is that akin to showing someone the gallows, or the electric chair, in an attempt to scare them?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Coreece 190]

Quote

legalistic hair splitting

Legalistic hair-splitting? Ya, it certainly feels like it. When it comes down to it, this whole thing is just another installment of the classic legalism vs. grace debate.

Christianity is certainly rooted in Judaism, and as Christians, I think it's crucial to understand the importance of how the burden of Jewish Law translates into Christian grace. I mean that's really what it's all about. That's the "good news" - How we have been freed from a law that no human could ever live up to except Jesus Christ Himself; and it's through Him that we have been saved, by grace - not the law

Furthermore, I also think it's important to understand what it was that Jesus condemned when it came to the Jewish leaders of his day and stop repeating those mistakes.

Personally I wish we could all just come together and just trim off all the fat. Let's just throw away all of our extra biblical nonsense and just concentrate on scripture without trying to extend it into areas of life that it does not specifically address.

The Jewish leaders took the original Law and began to add volumes upon volumes of oral laws that extended to specific details not addressed in the original...and then when Jesus violated these additional laws, they all flipped out. That's why in Luke 11 He says :

"Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers..."

"Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering."

The Catholic Church does this with all it's rites and rituals and the Evangelicals do it too with our prosperity gospel, various levels of legalism, moralism - do this, don't do that - can't play musical instruments at church...and on and on and on...and none of it's in scripture.

But it's no big deal for evangelicals when we're confronted - we just point the finger and say "don't look at me - that's that church over there, they're responsible for their own mess...don't look at me, that's Westboro - those guys are nuts."

It must be frustrating for some Catholics because they don't necessarily have that luxury when defending Catholicism...but they can can denounce some of those tenets and challenge their leaders, rather than minimalizing them and then turning a blind eye to it.

I was "raised" Catholic, went to a Catholic school and was an altar server for 8 years - never understood it. After High school I didn't step into a Catholic Church for 9 years unless it was for a wedding, funeral or Baptism. After a very humbling life experience, I thought perhaps I got something wrong...maybe I missed something. So I decided to re-examine my faith and that's when I learned most of what I know about Catholicism. After careful research, I concluded that the reformation got it right, or was at least a step back in the right direction. They brought the Church back to the basics where it needed to be.

Now, after years of feeding on more extra-biblical nonsense that has crept into the evangelical Church, it's time to start trimming off that fat again.

This was never about those in the Catholic Church being Christian or not, it is about what the Catholic Church "teaches." There are believers and non-believers in every denomination. Do you think I feel that what Westboro teaches is Christian? No, of course not...but that doesn't mean there aren't any Christians there. It all comes down to a matter of the heart.

Are people putting their faith in Christ or are they putting it into the Church and it's leaders? Can those leaders be trusted? Are people putting their faith in Christ or or are they putting it into some ritual? Do they understand the ritual? Do they understand their faith?

Do they go to Church and think about fishing, or do they go fishing and think about God?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[normiss 622]

Right there with the "fear and trembling".

It always comes across as a threat of eternal suffering if you don't love the right god the right way.
Such a prick.

[rehmwa 2]

normiss

It always comes across as a threat of eternal suffering if you don't love the right god the right way.

meh, you can't find regular light bulbs anyway, any more. Just as well worship the AGW bible now - couldn't hurt

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[RonD1120 58]

kallend

***the Holy Spirit is dealing with you and courting your return to the Lord. He is showing you the cross.

Is that akin to showing someone the gallows, or the electric chair, in an attempt to scare them?

That is not the way I use the term. I see the cross as the bridge by which man can reach God's paradise.


1 Corinthians 1:17-19
New King James Version (NKJV)

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

GeorgiaDon

In general I am curious about people, what they believe and why they believe it. I have no problem if people have a strong belief in God, but for me I cannot see evidence of a personal God. If God exists, why is there so much unnecessary suffering in the world, not suffering due to actions of other people (that might be explained by "free will") but random things like earthquakes, malaria, and on and on. The "it's all part of God's plan, which we cannot hope to understand" argument seems hopelessly circular and self-serving to me. A hands-off God who started the "Big Bang" and then sat back and let things take their own course is equally unsatisfactory, and unnecessary.

God is not necessary to explain the good that people do, nor is the devil necessary to explain evil.

Hope you didn't get hit too bad by this weather. Around here we got only a few showers, nothing like the 4-5 inches of rain that was forecast.

Don

Thanks for the honest response. We are out of the mountains for a few days. No problems when we left Wed.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 1,623]

RonD1120

******the Holy Spirit is dealing with you and courting your return to the Lord. He is showing you the cross.

Is that akin to showing someone the gallows, or the electric chair, in an attempt to scare them?

That is not the way I use the term. I see the cross as the bridge by which man can reach God's paradise.




”

The cross is an instrument of torture and execution. Nice way to reach your paradise, NOT.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Coreece 190]

kallend

*********the Holy Spirit is dealing with you and courting your return to the Lord. He is showing you the cross.

Is that akin to showing someone the gallows, or the electric chair, in an attempt to scare them?

That is not the way I use the term. I see the cross as the bridge by which man can reach God's paradise.




”

The cross is an instrument of torture and execution.

Used by godless roman pagans to exact punishment on those willing to die for their beliefs...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Amazon 7]

Coreece

************the Holy Spirit is dealing with you and courting your return to the Lord. He is showing you the cross.

Is that akin to showing someone the gallows, or the electric chair, in an attempt to scare them?

That is not the way I use the term. I see the cross as the bridge by which man can reach God's paradise.




”

The cross is an instrument of torture and execution.

Used by godless roman pagans to exact punishment on those willing to die for their beliefs...

To be accurate... the Romans had plenty of gods... and as time went on the Christians managed to use their existing holidays and many rituals to make their own religion easier to stomach for all of the people of the Roman world.

[normiss 622]

[Coreece 190]

I knew somebody would bring semantics into the mix...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Coreece

I knew somebody would bring semantics into the mix...

I love semantics!!!

Just wondering how "godless roman pagans" and "actually they had lots of gods" is a semantics argument.

[Coreece 190]

godless
adjective
1.having or acknowledging no god or deity; atheistic.
2.wicked; evil; sinful.


pagan
noun
1.one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks. Synonyms: polytheist.

2.a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim. Synonyms: heathen, gentile; idolator; nonbeliever.

3.an irreligious or hedonistic person.

4.a person deemed savage or uncivilized and morally deficient.

adjective
5.pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim. Synonyms: heathen, heathenish, idolatrous, polytheistic. Antonyms: Christian, Jewish, Muslim, monotheistic.

6.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of pagans.

7.irreligious or hedonistic. Synonyms: unbelieving, godless, atheistic, agnostic; impious, profane, sacrilegious, unholy, ungodly. Antonyms: religious, pious, devout.

8.of a person deemed backward, savage, or uncivilized or morally or spiritually stunted. Synonyms: primitive, uncultivated, uncultured, heathenish, barbaric, barbarous, philistine. Antonyms: civilized, cultivated, cultured, urbane.

Perhaps I should've said "Godless Pagan Romans"

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[normiss 622]

Thanks for clarifying his point.

[Coreece 190]

How so?

If I said "Roman Pagans," this wouldn't even be an issue...but I throw the word "godless" out there and people cavil about.

I mean, really? I have nearly a page's worth of replies and this is what you want to talk about? Figures...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[normiss 622]

"Just wondering how "godless roman pagans" and "actually they had lots of gods" is a semantics argument. "