RonD1120 58 #51 April 27, 2014 GeorgiaDon Jack Chick is a reputable Christian scholar?? You remind me of this Star Trek episode. How do you guys ever find it in your hearts to pervert Christianity into such a travesty of exclusion and hate? You're no different from the Sunnis and Shias who hate each other because of trivial differences in history, each denying the other is practicing "real" Islam. I'm glad that I know 100 decent Christians for each one that follows your twisted beliefs. Don What twisted beliefs of mine are you referring to? I am a Church of God Pentecostal.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #52 April 27, 2014 Boomerdog Touchy touchy touchy there. All I asked for was specific names of theologians and I get your screed. Sorry, I did not know the question was of such sensistive nature. When it comes to religion - there is little logic Touchy is a wild understatement there.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #53 April 27, 2014 turtlespeed When it comes to religion - there is little logic Never a truer word spoken.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #54 April 28, 2014 quadeWhat if Jesus, like L. Ron Hubbard, absolutely existed, but the beliefs surrounding him are not much more than mythology? Beliefs only have power when reality is based on them. Mythology will snuff itself out, no attacks are required of me. I observe them with a detached amusement. If Jesus is not the "Truth that sets us free", no worries, evolution will dump Him into the garbage can of time. But if He is true, those who grasp Him will thrive and prosper. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #55 April 28, 2014 maadmax***What if Jesus, like L. Ron Hubbard, absolutely existed, but the beliefs surrounding him are not much more than mythology? Beliefs only have power when reality is based on them. Mythology will snuff itself out, no attacks are required of me. I observe them with a detached amusement. If Jesus is not the "Truth that sets of free", no worries, evolution will dump Him into the garbage can of time. But if He is true, those who grasp Him will thrive and prosper. ... The only power religion has is what the populace gives them.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BartsDaddy 4 #56 April 28, 2014 Do you individuals ever get tired of arguing for somebody else's entertainment. Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #57 April 28, 2014 BartsDaddyDo you individuals ever get tired of arguing for somebody else's entertainment. No - I have learned how from my liberal betters on this site. Well . . . the self important ones anyway.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #58 April 28, 2014 Coreece ***Jack Chick is a reputable Christian scholar?? You remind me of this Star Trek episode. How do you guys ever find it in your hearts to pervert Christianity into such a travesty of exclusion and hate? You're no different from the Sunnis and Shias who hate each other because of trivial differences in history, each denying the other is practicing "real" Islam. I'm glad that I know 100 decent Christians for each one that follows your twisted beliefs. Don Where did he demonstrate exclusion and hate? Was it the part where he said that he believes some Catholics are Christians? He said no such thing. He said definitively that Catholics and Jehova's Witnesses are not Christians. He followed that with "..in terms of eternal life, we should talk", which reflects his often stated conviction that anyone who doesn't follow his particular flavor of religion is condemned to hell. Personally, I take a threat or eternal suffering and torment as an expression of hate, though I realize some of you manage to twist it in your mind to an expression of love. Quote Was it the part where he said that he believes Glen Beck (A Mormon) was a Christian? Or was it the part where he said "In terms of what is good for America, we can all work together. In terms of eternal life, maybe we should talk." He said nothing that denotes exclusion and hate... If anybody is twisting anything, it's you. It would be nice if we could just have a civil theological discussion about the difference between Evangelicals, Catholics, JW's and Mormons without you interjecting your irrelevant ad hom... There are trivial differences between Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, non-denominational, etc....no big deal. But there are major difference between the foundational tenets of those listed above and Catholicism, JW and Mormonism. They are so much different that you might as well just consider Muslims to be Christians simply because they also believe in Jesus... Now if you want to discuss those differences, great...I think it's rather interesting. But if you just want to flame away, I guess that's your prerogative. Catholics and JWs follow the same bible, believe in the same God, and believe Jesus is the son of God, just like all the denominations you listed above. Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Trinity, as do the denominations you listed above. JWs do have a different concept of the Holy Spirit. Catholics are close enough to Anglicans that practitioners of both are free to attend services and receive communion in one another's churches. Do you also argue that Anglicans are not Christians? Are all Anglicans also going to hell? Neither Catholics or JWs have added more recent texts to the Bible, unlike the Mormons. The Book of Mormon makes Mormonism distinct, a descendant of Christianity just as Christianity followed from Judaism. Exaggeration or outright falsehoods about Catholic theology by Evangelical sects stems from old power struggles, rooted in politics and the collection plate. White on the right vs black on the right kind of stuff. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #59 April 28, 2014 GeorgiaDon ******Jack Chick is a reputable Christian scholar?? You remind me of this Star Trek episode. How do you guys ever find it in your hearts to pervert Christianity into such a travesty of exclusion and hate? You're no different from the Sunnis and Shias who hate each other because of trivial differences in history, each denying the other is practicing "real" Islam. I'm glad that I know 100 decent Christians for each one that follows your twisted beliefs. Don Where did he demonstrate exclusion and hate? Was it the part where he said that he believes some Catholics are Christians? He said no such thing. He said definitively that Catholics and Jehova's Witnesses are not Christians. He followed that with "..in terms of eternal life, we should talk", which reflects his often stated conviction that anyone who doesn't follow his particular flavor of religion is condemned to hell. Personally, I take a threat or eternal suffering and torment as an expression of hate, though I realize some of you manage to twist it in your mind to an expression of love. Quote Was it the part where he said that he believes Glen Beck (A Mormon) was a Christian? Or was it the part where he said "In terms of what is good for America, we can all work together. In terms of eternal life, maybe we should talk." He said nothing that denotes exclusion and hate... If anybody is twisting anything, it's you. It would be nice if we could just have a civil theological discussion about the difference between Evangelicals, Catholics, JW's and Mormons without you interjecting your irrelevant ad hom... There are trivial differences between Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, non-denominational, etc....no big deal. But there are major difference between the foundational tenets of those listed above and Catholicism, JW and Mormonism. They are so much different that you might as well just consider Muslims to be Christians simply because they also believe in Jesus... Now if you want to discuss those differences, great...I think it's rather interesting. But if you just want to flame away, I guess that's your prerogative. Catholics and JWs follow the same bible, believe in the same God, and believe Jesus is the son of God, just like all the denominations you listed above. Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Trinity, as do the denominations you listed above. JWs do have a different concept of the Holy Spirit. Catholics are close enough to Anglicans that practitioners of both are free to attend services and receive communion in one another's churches. Do you also argue that Anglicans are not Christians? Are all Anglicans also going to hell? Neither Catholics or JWs have added more recent texts to the Bible, unlike the Mormons. The Book of Mormon makes Mormonism distinct, a descendant of Christianity just as Christianity followed from Judaism. Exaggeration or outright falsehoods about Catholic theology by Evangelical sects stems from old power struggles, rooted in politics and the collection plate. White on the right vs black on the right kind of stuff. Don You have provided a very long erudite explanation indicating that you have studied everything but the Scriptures of the Holy Bible. What does your church teach as the way to eternal life with God? What does the Pope say about prayer? To whom does he say we should pray? What Scripture(s) describe purgatory? Who in the RC church is qualified to understand Scripture? When did the JWs accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God? When did they accept the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? What is their explanation for the 144,000? How many times have they changed their belief since its inception by Charles Russell? Also, you may benefit from the clinical definition of projection. Rest assured, I do not reveal personal hate on this forum. Personal dislike is not hate. Some liberals get me close but no, not hate. I won't pick up that rope. PS. If you don't answer my first question we have no other ground to cover.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #60 April 28, 2014 QuoteQuoteWhere did he demonstrate exclusion and hate? Was it the part where he said that he believes some Catholics are Christians? He said no such thing. Yes he did...he said: "I've met some Catholics that I believe are Christians" QuoteJWs follow the same bible, believe in the same God, and believe Jesus is the son of God, just like all the denominations you listed above. The main difference is that though they believe Jesus is the Son of God, they do not believe He is God, the Son. This may not seem like a big deal, but the lack of this belief essentially denies the Deity of Christ which is the most important tenet of the faith. If Jesus is not God incarnate, then Christianity is the biggest hoax ever propagated in the history of humanity. QuoteCatholics are close enough to Anglicans that practitioners of both are free to attend services and receive communion in one another's churches.. But they wouldn't accept other denominations to participate in their communion, in fact, the Catholic church has made a list of pronouncements anathematizing (condemning to hell)anyone who doesn't believe in transubstantiation. (An extra biblical doctrine) Talk about exclusion and hate... Catholic Anathemas: http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/DocumentIndex/502 It is primarily these antithetical/extra biblical beliefs that sparked the reformation. (And, just to be fair, it was in response to the reformation that the Catholic Church made the pronouncements.) Now, in addition to the Anathemas listed with regard to the Eucharist, you will also see Anathemas regarding the Mass. Catholicism says that the Mass is a sacrifice and that it's necessary for propitiation. It's essentially the same sacrifice as Christs crucifixion. Catholicism believes that this sacrifice needs to continually be performed for the forgiveness of sin, but scripture is quite clear on this issue: Hebrews 10:10 "...And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God..." In a sense, it seems that the Catholic priesthood is mimicking Judaism by playing the high priest, but instead of sacrificing animals which can never take away sin, they "sacrifice" Jesus repeatedly at Mass. You combine this with the Catholic doctrine of Mary being a Co-Redemptrix and you seem to get a quasi form of Judaism mixed with ancient Roman Pagan goddess worship... ...and please understand this - I'm not saying that those in the Catholic Church actually believe these tenets or that they are even aware of them. QuoteDo you also argue that Anglicans are not Christians? Are all Anglicans also going to hell?. For me, this is not about judging those who identify with other religions. I do not presume to know what, or how much one actually believes in their heart, nor do I presume to know if they are going to hell or not...so please, just stop it. All I can really do is put forth my perspective on faith and how it has come about...and if that somehow resonates with someone and encourages them to reexamine the faith and make up their own mind, great. QuoteNeither Catholics or JWs have added more recent texts to the Bible, unlike the Mormons.Quote Catholicism also includes the Apocrypha and Papal Infallibility. (Ex Cathedra) Papal Infallibility can and has trumped the Bible. It's the new extra biblical beliefs formed from these sources that makes Catholicism a completely different Religion...and it's not a matter of interpretation of biblical texts. This is dogma formed from sources outside of Scripture, and the Catholic leaders will testify to that. The Book of Mormon makes Mormonism distinct, a descendant of Christianity just as Christianity followed from Judaism. Judaism left us wanting. Christianity is the fulfillment of God's promise from the Old testament texts...the only thing left is for the return of Christ, not Joe Smith. I tend to invite the Mormons in when they come by and we discussed this. We found that we are in agreement when it comes Catholicism, so I said : "You guys obviously understand the problems with the Apocrypha and Papal Infallibility, and you seem to agree that the Bible is sufficient...so do you see why I would reject the book of Mormon for the same reasons? They shook their head yes, and went on their way...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #61 April 28, 2014 Coreece Judaism left us wanting. Christianity is the fulfillment of God's promise from the Old testament texts... Jews are likely to strongly differ with your opinion there (with the exception of the Messianic ones). Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #62 April 28, 2014 QuoteThe main difference is that though they believe Jesus is the Son of God, they do not believe He is God, the Son. That's not what I was taught growing up Catholic. Are you sure about that? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #63 April 28, 2014 masterblaster72*** Judaism left us wanting. Christianity is the fulfillment of God's promise from the Old testament texts... Jews are likely to strongly differ with your opinion there (with the exception of the Messianic ones). I'm sure some will..but I believe they're still waiting for a messiah and seem to have given up on the animal sacrifices.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #64 April 28, 2014 DanGQuoteThe main difference is that though they believe Jesus is the Son of God, they do not believe He is God, the Son. That's not what I was taught growing up Catholic. Are you sure about that? That statement was regarding Jehovah's Witness...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunderbow 1 #65 April 28, 2014 I am only going to talk to the two points that stood out right away in your last post. 1) Most certainly Catholics believe that Jesus is God. I can't imagine what study of the Catholic faith that you could have done that would lead you to the conclusion that we don't. 2) The reason we don't allow non-Catholics to partake in receiving Communion in the Catholic Church is that we believe that just as Jesus said at the last supper "This IS my body" and "This IS my blood" that the wine and bread are miraculously transformed into His body and blood but still under the appearance of bread and wine. (The word used to describe this is transubstantiation) He told his disciples to do this in memory of me. This has been passed down from His disciples to us. This is one of the few points in the Bible that most non-Catholics do not take literally. I am editing to add that I missed some of your post that makes some of this redundant or not quite to the point you were making but I will let it stand as is for informational purposes about Catholic belief.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #66 April 28, 2014 Excellent response, authoritatively informative. Just to throw something else in the mix, what is your take on the "Great Commission?" Many evangelicals and mostly Baptists believe we are to go into the world and save souls. I believe that only the Holy Spirit leads the heart of someone to salvation. The decision rests with the individual. I believe we are to make disciples of those who have made the decision for Christ. We share the gospel of Christ and Him crucified. We teach and guide fellow believers on the path of righteousness for sanctification. Matthew 28:18-20 New King James Version (NKJV) 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #67 April 28, 2014 ThunderbowI am only going to talk to the two points that stood out right away in your last post. 1) Most certainly Catholics believe that Jesus is God. I can't imagine what study of the Catholic faith that you could have done that would lead you to the conclusion that we don't. 2) The reason we don't allow non-Catholics to partake in receiving Communion in the Catholic Church is that we believe that just as Jesus said at the last supper "This IS my body" and "This IS my blood" that the wine and bread are miraculously transformed into His body and blood but still under the appearance of bread and wine. (The word used to describe this is transfiguration) He told his disciples to do this in memory of me. This has been passed down from His disciples to us. This is one of the few points in the Bible that most non-Catholics do not take literally. The word you meant was transubstantiation. It means substituting the bread and wine for Christ's body and blood. That is close to fantasizing cannibalism. Also, note that following the Reformation Christ's body was removed from the cross. This indicates His work is finished and He is resurrected in Heaven with the Father. The Roman Catholic Church leaves Him on the cross making it a crucifix and thus indicates that His atoning death was insufficient as a once for all propitiation for sin.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #68 April 28, 2014 >What twisted beliefs of mine are you referring to? I am a Church of God Pentecostal. Well, thank heavens you aren't a Pentecostal Church of God member. Because those people aren't really Christians. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #69 April 28, 2014 ThunderbowI am only going to talk to the two points that stood out right away in your last post. 1) Most certainly Catholics believe that Jesus is God. Yes, they do...I apologize for not making that clear enough in my response about Jehovah's witness. Thunderbow2) The reason we don't allow non-Catholics to partake in receiving Communion in the Catholic Church is that we believe that just as Jesus said at the last supper "This IS my body" and "This IS my blood" that the wine and bread are miraculously transformed into His body and blood but still under the appearance of bread and wine. (The word used to describe this is transfiguration) He told his disciples to do this in memory of me. This has been passed down from His disciples to us. This is one of the few points in the Bible that most non-Catholics do not take literally. I think the word you meant to use was "transubstantiation." ...and you are correct, non-catholics do not believe that we are literally eating the body of Christ and drinking His blood. Jesus referred to Himself as the Bread of Life which is symbolic of the mana the Jews ate in the wilderness. His blood that was shed in his death is symbolic of the blood from animal sacrifices. Mana didn't satisfy the Jews and the animal sacrifices didn't satisfy God...but Jesus said: "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.... “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.... "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this to remember me." In our communion, we're simply coming together to remember the significance of what He did for us.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #70 April 28, 2014 billvon>What twisted beliefs of mine are you referring to? I am a Church of God Pentecostal. Well, thank heavens you aren't a Pentecostal Church of God member. Because those people aren't really Christians. I am a member of the church. You must have misread and certainly misspoke.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunderbow 1 #71 April 28, 2014 Yep, used the wrong word but edited it while you were writing this reply. But have never heard cannibalism mentioned along with it. Again, I say, it was Jesus Himself that said "This IS", not, "This represents". Some of his followers couldn't take this as true either and left him at that time. It is a hard teaching. Leaving Christ on the cross shows us what He went through for us. Unfortunately most Crucifixes don't portray the cruelty of a crucifixion. I understand that just as looking at a bare cross we might forget this suffering, looking at a Crucifix we might forget that he was taken down from the cross and then rose from the dead. There is more to teaching on both points than looking at a cross or crucifix.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #72 April 28, 2014 CoreeceQuoteQuoteWhere did he demonstrate exclusion and hate? Was it the part where he said that he believes some Catholics are Christians? He said no such thing. QuoteYes he did...he said: "I've met some Catholics that I believe are Christians"His full quote is quite clear that a few people may be Christians in spite of being Catholic. It's nowhere close to a statement that Catholics are Christian by definition, and in fact he says the opposite. QuoteQuoteJWs follow the same bible, believe in the same God, and believe Jesus is the son of God, just like all the denominations you listed above. QuoteThe main difference is that though they believe Jesus is the Son of God, they do not believe He is God, the Son. This may not seem like a big deal, but the lack of this belief essentially denies the Deity of Christ which is the most important tenet of the faith. If Jesus is not God incarnate, then Christianity is the biggest hoax ever propagated in the history of humanity. I'm in no position to defend JW, as I have no experience with that belief. Perhaps someone better able to explain the JW concept of Jesus will speak up. From my understanding, they believe Jesus is the son of God, in the sense of being His first act of creation, and lived in heaven as the Archangel Michael before His human incarnation. Quote QuoteCatholics are close enough to Anglicans that practitioners of both are free to attend services and receive communion in one another's churches.. QuoteBut they wouldn't accept other denominations to participate in their communion, in fact, the Catholic church has made a list of pronouncements anathematizing (condemning to hell)anyone who doesn't believe in transubstantiation. (An extra biblical doctrine) Talk about exclusion and hate... Catholic Anathemas: http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/DocumentIndex/502 It is primarily these antithetical/extra biblical beliefs that sparked the reformation. (And, just to be fair, it was in response to the reformation that the Catholic Church made the pronouncements.)Church teaching on many of these matters has changed since the Council of Trent in 1551! QuoteQuoteNow, in addition to the Anathemas listed with regard to the Eucharist, you will also see Anathemas regarding the Mass. Catholicism says that the Mass is a sacrifice and that it's necessary for propitiation. It's essentially the same sacrifice as Christs crucifixion. Catholicism believes that this sacrifice needs to continually be performed for the forgiveness of sin, but scripture is quite clear on this issue: Hebrews 10:10 "...And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God..." In a sense, it seems that the Catholic priesthood is mimicking Judaism by playing the high priest, but instead of sacrificing animals which can never take away sin, they "sacrifice" Jesus repeatedly at Mass.It is my understanding that the parts you put in bold were added into the King James Bible and are not present in the original Greek texts. The whole King James version, which seems to be considered "divinely inspired", is well known to have been based on earlier translations, not on the original texts, and was heavily modified to reflect the political leanings of King James. Some others who post here are more qualified than I am to speak on the books of the New Testament in their original language. QuoteQuoteYou combine this with the Catholic doctrine of Mary being a Co-Redemptrix and you seem to get a quasi form of Judaism mixed with ancient Roman Pagan goddess worship... ...and please understand this - I'm not saying that those in the Catholic Church actually believe these tenets or that they are even aware of them.I do not recall at any time in my Catholic education being taught that Mary was a "co-redemptrix". The only thing "special" about Mary was the teaching that she was taken bodily into Heaven, which always seemed (to me) to be nothing more than a tidy dodge against the idea of the mother of God being eaten by maggots. QuoteQuoteDo you also argue that Anglicans are not Christians? Are all Anglicans also going to hell?. For me, this is not about judging those who identify with other religions. I do not presume to know what, or how much one actually believes in their heart, nor do I presume to know if they are going to hell or not...so please, just stop it. All I can really do is put forth my perspective on faith and how it has come about...and if that somehow resonates with someone and encourages them to reexamine the faith and make up their own mind, great. QuoteNeither Catholics or JWs have added more recent texts to the Bible, unlike the Mormons.Quote QuoteCatholicism also includes the Apocrypha and Papal Infallibility. (Ex Cathedra) Papal Infallibility can and has trumped the Bible. It's the new extra biblical beliefs formed from these sources that makes Catholicism a completely different Religion...and it's not a matter of interpretation of biblical texts. This is dogma formed from sources outside of Scripture, and the Catholic leaders will testify to that. What, to your mind, makes Catholicism a "completely different religion"? I am unaware of any papal edicts that Jesus is no longer to be followed, and that Bob the Boatbuilder is the new Messia, for example. Catholic teaching is that Jesus designated Peter as his heir, and the authority of the pope follows from direct lineal descent from Peter. The structure of every organization reflects the times in which it was founded. The Church is over 2,000 years old and at the time of it's founding the only model for a large organization was "monarcy", so it's hardly a surprise that as it grew the Church assumed the same sort of organizational structure. Much more recent Protestant denominations are mostly of American origin, and their dispersed organization with no single leader and each congregation more-or-less independent reflects the American experience of casting off the British King and placing power in the hands of the "common people". Even so, it's interesting to note how many of these denominations have felt the need to create a council or committee, or even designate a leader, to maintain coherence. Regarding papal infallibility, every faith has leaders at some level, even if just the local minister, who believes he (or rarely she) is right because God speaks to them, either directly (like Oral Roberts, who I recall claimed to talk to God on the telephone) or in their heart. QuoteThe Book of Mormon makes Mormonism distinct, a descendant of Christianity just as Christianity followed from Judaism. Judaism left us wanting. Christianity is the fulfillment of God's promise from the Old testament texts...the only thing left is for the return of Christ, not Joe Smith. I tend to invite the Mormons in when they come by and we discussed this. We found that we are in agreement when it comes Catholicism, so I said : "You guys obviously understand the problems with the Apocrypha and Papal Infallibility, and you seem to agree that the Bible is sufficient...so do you see why I would reject the book of Mormon for the same reasons? They shook their head yes, and went on their way..._____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunderbow 1 #73 April 28, 2014 As to your "throw in", yes we are all called to go into the world and save souls. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it and we know many on DZ.com wish we were all more quiet or even silent about it) Catholics are a little more quiet in how we go about it. Sometimes the example says more than the words and it works out just fine. Not that all Catholics are good examples but sometimes it helps to be able to talk religion over a beer or two.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunderbow 1 #74 April 28, 2014 Yes, co-redemtrix (and mediatrix) is (are) used, and very misunderstood. To save a lot of typing I refer you to: http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/can-you-help-me-resolve-my-difficulties-with-marian-doctrines>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #75 April 28, 2014 ThunderbowAs to your "throw in", yes we are all called to go into the world and save souls. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it and we know many on DZ.com wish we were all more quiet or even silent about it) Catholics are a little more quiet in how we go about it. Sometimes the example says more than the words and it works out just fine. Not that all Catholics are good examples but sometimes it helps to be able to talk religion over a beer or two. What I am getting at is, only a soul that has repented with a contrite heart can be saved. Only God knows the condition of the heart. I maintain we cannot save souls. We can only preach Christ and Him crucified. Sorry, I am not able to discuss anything over a beer or two. I am a delivered alcoholic and tend to retreat from folks who are using.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
