Cliven Bundy Syndrome

[billvon 2,398]

>>William Jennings Bryan said; 'Burn your towns and they will re-build. Burn your >>farms and your towns will be gone.'

>Bryan also referred to creationism as "the plainest spiritual truth", and evolution
>as "the wildest guess advanced in the name of science".

Joss Whedon said
"Take my love, take my land take me where I cannot stand
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me."

[masterrig 1]

Sure. He does make a point. Like him or not.


Chuck

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

masterrig

... If the government keeps it up, we'll wind-up putting farmers and ranchers out of business and we'll be dependent on other countries for our food as well as increasing the un-employment rate.


Chuck

Not really. At least not in this particular case. This is some of the worst possible grazing land. The very bottom of the barrel. The few hundred head of cattle (few thousand if you consider all that used to be there) aren't even a drop in the bucket to the beef industry.
There is a lot better land, and a lot of it, elsewhere for cattle. We don't have a grazing land shortage in this country.

We do have a few people who feel that they are entitled to use federal land however they like regardless of consequences because they have always done it.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[masterrig 1]

wolfriverjoe

***... If the government keeps it up, we'll wind-up putting farmers and ranchers out of business and we'll be dependent on other countries for our food as well as increasing the un-employment rate.


Chuck

Not really. At least not in this particular case. This is some of the worst possible grazing land. The very bottom of the barrel. The few hundred head of cattle (few thousand if you consider all that used to be there) aren't even a drop in the bucket to the beef industry.
There is a lot better land, and a lot of it, elsewhere for cattle. We don't have a grazing land shortage in this country.

We do have a few people who feel that they are entitled to use federal land however they like regardless of consequences because they have always done it.

I see.


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

wolfriverjoe

***... If the government keeps it up, we'll wind-up putting farmers and ranchers out of business and we'll be dependent on other countries for our food as well as increasing the un-employment rate.


Chuck

Not really. At least not in this particular case. This is some of the worst possible grazing land. The very bottom of the barrel. The few hundred head of cattle (few thousand if you consider all that used to be there) aren't even a drop in the bucket to the beef industry.
There is a lot better land, and a lot of it, elsewhere for cattle. We don't have a grazing land shortage in this country.

We do have a few people who feel that they are entitled to use federal land however they like regardless of consequences because they have always done it.

I'm curious about your statement that there is 'a lot' of grazing land in this country. Is that your assessment or do you have a source for that statement? I keep reading and hearing that we are losing millions of acres of farm and ranchland annually due to 'urban sprawl'. Also, if there is such an abundance of grazing land... why are ranchers leasing government land for grazing in our Western states?


Chuck

[cloud9 0]

Quote

Uh.. no... wrong side of the mountains for bison.

Well you might have me on this one. But hey there were dinosaurs....they're big critters right? You just didn't go back far enough.

I have to admit I've never been in that part of the country.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

I'm curious about your statement that there is 'a lot' of grazing land in this country. Is that your assessment or do you have a source for that statement?

I can't link to an "official source", but my anecdotal observation is that there seems to be a lot of fallow pasturage here in Georgia. This is potentially quite rich grazing land. More about this below.

Quote

I keep reading and hearing that we are losing millions of acres of farm and ranchland annually due to 'urban sprawl'.

Unquestionably that is true. Proximity to markets is an advantage, but that also means developers come looking for land. When I was looking to buy property, I found that anything west of town (between my town and Atlanta) was selling for $12,000-20,000/acre, because even 60 miles is considered within commuting distance of Atlanta. Developers can put in a subdivision, put 4-5 houses on an acre of land, and charge $200,000-400,000/house, so $20,000 an acre is a rounding error to them. To a farmer, though, that can add up to enough money to retire on.

Also in some cases cities expand their boundaries, and land that was once rural (and taxed as such) now find themselves inside city limits, subject to much higher property taxes. In some questionable cases this tactic is used to strong-arm farmers into selling land to developers.

By the way, I ended up buying east of town and paid about $4,000/acre. Larger parcels go for less, if I was looking for ~100 acres or more I could have had it for around $2,500/acre.

Quote

Also, if there is such an abundance of grazing land... why are ranchers leasing government land for grazing in our Western states?

Because the land is so unsuitable for grazing you need 100X the land to support a viable operation, and it would be unfeasible to have to buy that much land.

Around here, there is no government land to lease and farmers have to buy their land (or lease it from another farmer). You can certainly run a viable ranching operation on 150-200 acres, but the setup costs (land, equipment, buildings, infrastructure, and stock) can easily run several hundred thousand to a million dollars. Most farms (that I know of) are family operations where the land has been in the family for generations, or maybe one of the children will buy land close by and use the family equipment for a few years until they can afford their own. So around here there is plenty of land, but the startup costs are a barrier.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[masterrig 1]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

I'm curious about your statement that there is 'a lot' of grazing land in this country. Is that your assessment or do you have a source for that statement?

I can't link to an "official source", but my anecdotal observation is that there seems to be a lot of fallow pasturage here in Georgia. This is potentially quite rich grazing land. More about this below.

Quote

I keep reading and hearing that we are losing millions of acres of farm and ranchland annually due to 'urban sprawl'.

Unquestionably that is true. Proximity to markets is an advantage, but that also means developers come looking for land. When I was looking to buy property, I found that anything west of town (between my town and Atlanta) was selling for $12,000-20,000/acre, because even 60 miles is considered within commuting distance of Atlanta. Developers can put in a subdivision, put 4-5 houses on an acre of land, and charge $200,000-400,000/house, so $20,000 an acre is a rounding error to them. To a farmer, though, that can add up to enough money to retire on.

Also in some cases cities expand their boundaries, and land that was once rural (and taxed as such) now find themselves inside city limits, subject to much higher property taxes. In some questionable cases this tactic is used to strong-arm farmers into selling land to developers.

By the way, I ended up buying east of town and paid about $4,000/acre. Larger parcels go for less, if I was looking for ~100 acres or more I could have had it for around $2,500/acre.

Quote

Also, if there is such an abundance of grazing land... why are ranchers leasing government land for grazing in our Western states?

Because the land is so unsuitable for grazing you need 100X the land to support a viable operation, and it would be unfeasible to have to buy that much land.

Around here, there is no government land to lease and farmers have to buy their land (or lease it from another farmer). You can certainly run a viable ranching operation on 150-200 acres, but the setup costs (land, equipment, buildings, infrastructure, and stock) can easily run several hundred thousand to a million dollars. Most farms (that I know of) are family operations where the land has been in the family for generations, or maybe one of the children will buy land close by and use the family equipment for a few years until they can afford their own. So around here there is plenty of land, but the startup costs are a barrier.

Don

I get the idea that the 'fallow' acreage you mentioned is not used for grazing. Someone owns that land and probably doesn't want it grazed.(?) I understand what you are saying about the land and land prices there in Georgia.
My main point is the grazing land is shrinking. In some parts of Texas, it takes more than 100 acres to graze one cow. Other parts, it may only take around 25 acres. Cattle eat faster than the grass can grow back. Natural grass is far cheaper than having to buy hay and grain to feed cattle. I know a rancher outside Midland Texas who recently lost around 1,000 acres of pasture land through 'immanent domain', so a truck by-pass could be built across a portion of his ranch. That rancher and his family have been very generous to the community. He fought in the courts but lost. For this and other reasons, pasture land is shrinking. The open land areas seen while traveling the interstates looks like good grazing land but is it used for that? A lot of folks say that beef can be raised in feed-lots. Sure they can but the price of beef will sky-rocket. We all like a good steak that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. That cattle would have to be fed grains and grains costs money. Also, cattle in feedlots take more caring to keep diseases out and so-on. Those vaccinations aren't cheap. One sick cow can do a lot of damage. In more open pastures, cattle do better. Also, it takes people to work feed-lots on a daily basis and quite often, at night all year long. Those hands have to be paid. It's as you know, more involved than going to the grocery store and buying a T-bone. For some reason, the government keeps making it more and more difficult on those people trying to do something they love to do... produce the food that feeds this nation and parts of the world. Those people know how to care for the land. Unfortunately, the government doesn't agree. They just hammer-out law after law and regulation after regulation and most of them don't make sense.


Chuck

[kelpdiver 2]

cloud9

Exactly this is the kind of thing causing the problems. The BLM is constantly changing the rules and often for idiotic reasons. Locking cattle out of the water is saving the water quality right? Give me a break, this water is used by Elk, Pronghorn and even Mule deer. So they locked out all the wild animals that need the water source way to go great management. So Deer, Elk and Antelope use the water source but a few cows are going to destroy it I don't think so. This is all about government control.

Cloud - are you a biologist? (amazon already called you on the bison remark). Do you know that cows are no different than naturally occurring wildlife?

In a desert environment with limited water supplies, if the local species crapped all over it, they'd die out rather quickly. Cows, otoh, are content to stand on mountains of shit. They among the dumbest creatures alive, cultivated purely to generate beef. So no, I'm not convinced by your argument that if elk exist, cows be fine too. Particularly not when the rancher will put out as many calves as he thinks the land will support, and more so when he's paying little to nothing for each incremental one. Humans have shown a long history of optimizing for short term profit and nothing else. Government regulations are one method to counter that. They tend to be reactionary and inadequate, as typically seen with fisheries.

[kelpdiver 2]

Chuck - implicit in your comments is that grazing is a more legitimate use of land than others. It's not just grazing land that is decreasing, all sort of resources of decreasing as our population increases, or as we 'use up' existing land through inefficient patterns. The result is a lot of competing interests. Why should ranchers come out on top?

When I read the description of the amount of acreage in this region needed to raise a single cow, my gut reaction is that it should be done somewhere else, that this person is fairly wastefully utilizing this land, and to add insult, paying nothing for it, and rejecting our nation in the process.

[masterrig 1]

kelpdiver

Chuck - implicit in your comments is that grazing is a more legitimate use of land than others. It's not just grazing land that is decreasing, all sort of resources of decreasing as our population increases, or as we 'use up' existing land through inefficient patterns. The result is a lot of competing interests. Why should ranchers come out on top?

When I read the description of the amount of acreage in this region needed to raise a single cow, my gut reaction is that it should be done somewhere else, that this person is fairly wastefully utilizing this land, and to add insult, paying nothing for it, and rejecting our nation in the process.

I did not say that grazing is a more legitimate use of the land. I don't know where you get your ideas but you don't make sense. I don't believe you know the eatin' end from the shittin; end of cow. I don't believe either, there is anything I could say that would get you to understand so this is my last word on the matter.


Chuck

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

In some parts of Texas, it takes more than 100 acres to graze one cow. Other parts, it may only take around 25 acres.

Just by way of comparison:

"The average Georgia Cattlemen's Association member owns 123 head of cattle and owns or leases an average of 447 acres of land." (source)

So that's 3-4 acres to graze one cow, as opposed to more than 100.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[billvon 2,398]

>"The average Georgia Cattlemen's Association member owns 123 head of cattle
>and owns or leases an average of 447 acres of land."

Leases? What Godless pinko communist pays his lease?

[rushmc 18]

billvon

>"The average Georgia Cattlemen's Association member owns 123 head of cattle
>and owns or leases an average of 447 acres of land."

Leases? What Godless pinko communist pays his lease?

Ah
People lease land all over Iowa to feed cattle
Only difference?
they are not dealing with the BLM

Oh the horor of being a Godless comi pinko....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,398]

>People lease land all over Iowa to feed cattle Only difference?

They have the integrity to pay their debts?

[rushmc 18]

billvon

>People lease land all over Iowa to feed cattle Only difference?

They have the integrity to pay their debts?

Yes, that is an easy decision when dealing with an owner that has integrity too

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,398]

>Yes, that is an easy decision when dealing with an owner that has integrity too

Ah. So a man with integrity welches on his debts if he doesn't like the person/organization he owes money to.

I guess I have a different definition of "integrity" than you do.

[rushmc 18]

billvon

>Yes, that is an easy decision when dealing with an owner that has integrity too

Ah. So a man with integrity welches on his debts if he doesn't like the person/organization he owes money to.

I guess I have a different definition of "integrity" than you do.

Hmm
Beter stated a person of integrity has an easier time dealing with another with the same level of integrity

Anyone who thinks todays gov or the BLM have integrity are doing bridge buying deals as we speak

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

rushmc

***>"The average Georgia Cattlemen's Association member owns 123 head of cattle
>and owns or leases an average of 447 acres of land."

Leases? What Godless pinko communist pays his lease?

Ah
People lease land all over Iowa to feed cattle
Only difference?
they are not dealing with the BLM

Oh the horor of being a Godless comi pinko....

Iowa is not the Mojave Desert .. a check of annual precipitation would point that out rather effectively and was acquired and parceled out far differently by the government for the benefit of white European Americans.

[rushmc 18]

Amazon

******>"The average Georgia Cattlemen's Association member owns 123 head of cattle
>and owns or leases an average of 447 acres of land."

Leases? What Godless pinko communist pays his lease?

Ah
People lease land all over Iowa to feed cattle
Only difference?
they are not dealing with the BLM

Oh the horor of being a Godless comi pinko....

Iowa is not the Mojave Desert .. a check of annual precipitation would point that out rather effectively and was acquired and parceled out far differently by the government for the benefit of white European Americans.

Not the point but
you already know that

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

rushmc

*********>"The average Georgia Cattlemen's Association member owns 123 head of cattle
>and owns or leases an average of 447 acres of land."

Leases? What Godless pinko communist pays his lease?

Ah
People lease land all over Iowa to feed cattle
Only difference?
they are not dealing with the BLM

Oh the horor of being a Godless comi pinko....

Iowa is not the Mojave Desert .. a check of annual precipitation would point that out rather effectively and was acquired and parceled out far differently by the government for the benefit of white European Americans.

Not the point but
you already know that

Climatological and Historical facts... but you seem to not know that I guess the history is not settled.

must add smileys

[rushmc 18]

Amazon

************>"The average Georgia Cattlemen's Association member owns 123 head of cattle
>and owns or leases an average of 447 acres of land."

Leases? What Godless pinko communist pays his lease?

Ah
People lease land all over Iowa to feed cattle
Only difference?
they are not dealing with the BLM

Oh the horor of being a Godless comi pinko....

Iowa is not the Mojave Desert .. a check of annual precipitation would point that out rather effectively and was acquired and parceled out far differently by the government for the benefit of white European Americans.

Not the point but
you already know that

Climatological and Historical facts... but you seem to not know that I guess the history is not settled.

must add smileys


I know it is hard for you to stay on topic

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

rushmc

***************>"The average Georgia Cattlemen's Association member owns 123 head of cattle
>and owns or leases an average of 447 acres of land."

Leases? What Godless pinko communist pays his lease?

Ah
People lease land all over Iowa to feed cattle
Only difference?
they are not dealing with the BLM

Oh the horor of being a Godless comi pinko....

Iowa is not the Mojave Desert .. a check of annual precipitation would point that out rather effectively and was acquired and parceled out far differently by the government for the benefit of white European Americans.

Not the point but
you already know that

Climatological and Historical facts... but you seem to not know that I guess the history is not settled.

must add smileys


I know it is hard for you to stay on topic

Dats funni rite dar
Settling in a desert and trying to do the same things as you would do on the grasslands of midwestern America.... and how the homesteading actually occured there in Iowa and the laws it was done under... and then comparing ..... ESPECIALLY in the case of the Welfare Cowboy whose ancestors bought that property in the Mesquite NV Virgin River area in the dim distant past of Nevada of the 1940's and not any relation to the varied homesteading laws... yeah.. Dats funni rite dar

[billvon 2,398]

>Anyone who thinks todays gov or the BLM have integrity are doing bridge buying
>deals as we speak

And anyone who thinks that a crook who doesn't pay his bills has integrity . . . well, I got a great bridge in Alaska that will go for a song.

[rushmc 18]

billvon

>Anyone who thinks todays gov or the BLM have integrity are doing bridge buying
>deals as we speak

And anyone who thinks that a crook who doesn't pay his bills has integrity . . . well, I got a great bridge in Alaska that will go for a song.

Crooks paying crooks is always an interesting show

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln