IRS seizing refunds if your parents owed the SSA

[riddler 0]

Here's how it works:

1. If the Social Security Agency gave money to your parents 30 or 40 years ago and
2. The SSA feels that it overpaid your parents (or someone else it can't identify) and
3. You, the child, are getting a tax refund this year, then
4. The IRS takes your refund as "repayment" of your parents' debt


http://m.washingtonpost.com/politics/social-security-treasury-target-hundreds-of-thousands-of-taxpayers-for-parents-old-debts/2014/04/10/74ac8eae-bf4d-11e3-bcec-b71ee10e9bc3_story.html

Quote

A few weeks ago, with no notice, the U.S. government intercepted Mary Grice’s tax refunds from both the IRS and the state of Maryland. Grice had no idea that Uncle Sam had seized her money until some days later, when she got a letter saying that her refund had gone to satisfy an old debt to the government — a very old debt.

When Grice was 4, back in 1960, her father died, leaving her mother with five children to raise. Until the kids turned 18, Sadie Grice got survivor benefits from Social Security to help feed and clothe them.

Now, Social Security claims it overpaid someone in the Grice family — it’s not sure who — in 1977. After 37 years of silence, four years after Sadie Grice died, the government is coming after her daughter. Why the feds chose to take Mary’s money, rather than her surviving siblings’, is a mystery.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[PiLFy 0]

The bankrupt Welfare State comes up w/another bogus reason to steal monies from the citizenry. Federal Thieves & Cowards...

[ryoder 1,382]

Here is the text that supposedly authorized this in the 2008 Farm bill:

Quote

SEC. 14219. ELIMINATION OF STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS APPLICABLE TO
COLLECTION OF DEBT BY ADMINISTRATIVE
OFFSET.

(a) Elimination.--Section 3716(e) of title 31, United States Code,
is amended to read as follows:
``(e)(1) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, regulation, or
administrative limitation, no limitation on the period within which an
offset may be initiated or taken pursuant to this section shall be
effective.

[[Page 122 STAT. 2245]]

``(2) This section does not apply when a statute explicitly
prohibits using administrative offset or setoff to collect the claim or
type of claim involved.''.
(b) <> Application of Amendment.--The
amendment made by subsection (a) shall apply to any debt outstanding on
or after the date of the enactment of this Act.

Source: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-110publ246/html/PLAW-110publ246.htm

I'm not seeing where this makes someone liable for their parents debt.
I hope this goes to court.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

...2. The SSA feels that it overpaid your parents (or someone else it can't identify)

The govt. needs a bit more than just feelings. Life, liberty and property may not be taken without due process of law do the govt. better bring the proof.

[sfzombie13 307]

not really. as i have said multiple times for years, "they can do whatever they want". you may have a court battle later, you may even win, but try stopping them when they want to do something. see what happens when you point a gun at the federal thugs when they bust down your door. it may be illegal, but you are not going to win without a fight. this is wrong, but just how it is.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[champu 1]

Mitigative step...

riddler

3. You, the child, are getting a tax refund this year

...don't get a tax refund.

[skydiver30960 0]

champu

Mitigative step...

***3. You, the child, are getting a tax refund this year

...don't get a tax refund.

Yeah, really: I WISH I had the problem of being at risk for this.

Elvisio "huge extra withholdings all year, STILL cutting a fat check" Rodriguez

[kelpdiver 2]

I received survivor benefits. Though my mother deposited it, I believe it was to my name, not her's. So if they over paid me, then it was my 'debt,' not her's. But seems like the deadline to reconcile should also have been long ago.

With a single anecdote, can't identify if its something similar.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

But seems like the deadline to reconcile should also have been long ago.

From reading this thread (only), it appears that it was, until the newer version of the statute expressly nullified any such deadline.

[StreetScooby 5]

This govt is out of control. Just wait until Obamacare decides your hobbies are too dangerous... There is no balance here...

We are all engines of karma

[Boogers 0]

kelpdiver

I received survivor benefits. Though my mother deposited it, I believe it was to my name, not her's. So if they over paid me, then it was my 'debt,' not her's.

Survivor benefits are paid to children, under age 18. Those benefits end when the child turns 18, right? So the check goes to the guardian parent, and THEY should be the ones responsible for it. Children can't legally hold debt. The child is not responsible for the parents debt. When the parents die, the ability to collect that debt ends. Finite. Done.

And if it's not survivor benefits, then children are most definitely not responsible for the debts of their parents. Debt is not passed on in inheritance. No way, no how.

So I don't see any way how this could be true. I want more info on the IRS specifics and logic.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

PiLFy

The bankrupt Welfare State comes up w/another bogus reason to steal monies from the citizenry. Federal Thieves & Cowards...

If she wasn't such a freeloading lazy bitch and gotten a job, this wouldn't have been an issue to begin with. Fucking communists, always wanting shit for free.

[champu 1]

PiLFy

The bankrupt Welfare State comes up w/another bogus reason to steal monies from the citizenry. Federal Thieves & Cowards...

Not a fair characterization of the situation considering Hanlon's Razor. This is simply giant gears of bureaucracy making a revolution a la the movie Brazil. sfzombie13 hit the nail on the head that just as a supposed mistake was found and "corrected" by the IRS (and I wonder how much it cost the IRS to do so) a similar expenditure of time and money on the part of Ms. Grice may allow her to get her money back if it was taken incorrectly.

That said, Social Security is going bankrupt in much the same way the Titanic was sinking: slowly, inevitably, and despite people's continued assertions of how great it is and how unthinkable it would be for it to go under.

[DanG 1]

Quote

And if it's not survivor benefits, then children are most definitely not responsible for the debts of their parents. Debt is not passed on in inheritance. No way, no how

No, but the parent's estate may be. Not sure how that relates to the current thread, but if you have debts when you die, and money in your estate, the estate has to pay those debts before distributing funds to survivors.

- Dan G

[Andy9o8 0]

DanG

Quote

And if it's not survivor benefits, then children are most definitely not responsible for the debts of their parents. Debt is not passed on in inheritance. No way, no how

No, but the parent's estate may be. Not sure how that relates to the current thread, but if you have debts when you die, and money in your estate, the estate has to pay those debts before distributing funds to survivors.

Correct, and that's just the first part. The next part is that if heirs are paid their inheritance while creditors' debts remain outstanding, even if that was just an honest mistake, then the estate's personal representative (executor or administrator) becomes personally liable for that. (So keep that in mind before you agree to act as executor to Aunt Tillie's estate.) Similarly, the heirs who received estate assets can sometimes be forced to give back that which should have been paid first to creditors.

All that being said, it's possible that none of this necessarily applies to the particular scenario in the OP.

[Boogers 0]

DanG

Quote

And if it's not survivor benefits, then children are most definitely not responsible for the debts of their parents. Debt is not passed on in inheritance. No way, no how

No, but the parent's estate may be. Not sure how that relates to the current thread, but if you have debts when you die, and money in your estate, the estate has to pay those debts before distributing funds to survivors.

Right, so if the parents owe the IRS money, the IRS should have a lien in on that estate, to get their money from what's available at the time they pass away. They shouldn't be able to come in much later, after the estate has already been settled, and say that the beneficiaries of that estate now owe the money. That isn't right. If the IRS wants their refund, they should be diligent about asking for it in a reasonable period of time.

[turtlespeed 212]

Boogers

***

Quote

And if it's not survivor benefits, then children are most definitely not responsible for the debts of their parents. Debt is not passed on in inheritance. No way, no how

No, but the parent's estate may be. Not sure how that relates to the current thread, but if you have debts when you die, and money in your estate, the estate has to pay those debts before distributing funds to survivors.

Right, so if the parents owe the IRS money, the IRS should have a lien in on that estate, to get their money from what's available at the time they pass away. They shouldn't be able to come in much later, after the estate has already been settled, and say that the beneficiaries of that estate now owe the money. That isn't right. If the IRS wants their refund, they should be diligent about asking for it in a reasonable period of time.

I wonder if this type of seizure is a new part of the ever changing health care debockle. The IRS is the entity enforcing healthcare penalties now, after all.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,121]

turtlespeed

******

Quote

And if it's not survivor benefits, then children are most definitely not responsible for the debts of their parents. Debt is not passed on in inheritance. No way, no how

No, but the parent's estate may be. Not sure how that relates to the current thread, but if you have debts when you die, and money in your estate, the estate has to pay those debts before distributing funds to survivors.

Right, so if the parents owe the IRS money, the IRS should have a lien in on that estate, to get their money from what's available at the time they pass away. They shouldn't be able to come in much later, after the estate has already been settled, and say that the beneficiaries of that estate now owe the money. That isn't right. If the IRS wants their refund, they should be diligent about asking for it in a reasonable period of time.

I wonder if this type of seizure is a new part of the ever changing health care debockle. The IRS is the entity enforcing healthcare penalties now, after all.

Yes the IRS is specifically going after republicans to get money to fund Preventive Health Care like abortions.

[SivaGanesha 2]

ryoder

I'm not seeing where this makes someone liable for their parents debt.
I hope this goes to court.

From my perspective the most disturbing thing here is elimination of the statute of limitations--especially a retroactive elimination of the statute of limitations. The statute of limitations is there for a reason because after many years it becomes difficult to prove a case either way except in extreme situations like murder.

However, I'm wondering whether there was ever a statute of limitations on the debt itself--as opposed to the administrative offset procedures? That is--absent the ability to get the money from the IRS, would Social Security itself eventually have withheld the money when she applied for Social Security benefits?

Some government debt has no statute of limitations. Federal income tax has a 10 year statute of limitations after you file--but no limitations if you fail to file. State income tax has no statute of limitations IIRC.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

Boogers

Children can't legally hold debt.

Perhaps the SSA is contending here that the original error was that the payments continued, in error, a little beyond the 18th birthday, at which point the children could indeed be held legally liable for the debt.

That said, if the checks were made out in the parents' name after both the children and parents were legally adults, it is hard to see how there is a basis for recouping that money from anyone but the parents.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[kallend 1,623]

StreetScooby

This govt is out of control. Just wait until Obamacare decides your hobbies are too dangerous... There is no balance here...

Just to be clear, this rule was imposed in 2008. Obama was not prez in 2008.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NWFlyer 2]

Apparently the press can still have some influence from time to time.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/social-security-stops-trying-to-collect-on-old-taxpayer-debts/2014/04/14/9355c58e-c40f-11e3-bcec-b71ee10e9bc3_story.html?tid=sm_fb

Quote

The Social Security Administration announced Monday that it will immediately cease efforts to collect on taxpayers’ debts to the government that are more than 10 years old.

The action comes after The Washington Post reported that the government was seizing state and federal tax refunds that were on their way to about 400,000 Americans who had relatives who owed money to Social Security. In many cases, the people whose refunds were intercepted had never heard of any debt, and the debts dated as far back as the middle of the past century.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[DanG 1]

Quote

Apparently the press can still have some influence from time to time.

Oh, so now that Kenyan bastard is trying to increase the deficit even more!

- Dan G