20 injured in Pa. high school stabbings

[tkhayes 125]

I agree, but every time we try to 'regulate' or even change society to do the 'right thing' as you say, it gets shot down as government overreach, intruding on our personal freedoms etc, unconstitutional and all that.

If we want absolute freedom, then you can expect people to absolutely and freely go on a rampage once in a while..... actually fairly regularly, whether that be road rage, a knife attack, naked and screaming at McDonalds, or with many guns in a theater or school.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

CanuckInUSA

Quote

Your inability to provide health care makes the easy access to weapons just that more problematic.

The solution for the US isn't trying to ban guns, it is improving health care and building a better society.

If it wasn't for the fact that people were injured (one who was critically injured) what you wrote here would be comical with a heavy dose of hypocrisy. You really should not be throwing all those stones from your glass house.

Multiple stabbings at Toronto office leave 1 critical - April 9th, 2014

Why is it hypocrisy? Health care and mental health care could be improved in Canada as well.

Toronto is safer than any of the cities of similar size in the US though.

[havoc996 0]

This kind of goes along the lines of what I said earlier in this thread. People talk the talk but when action is needed far to often all you hear is crickets.

http://www.upworthy.com/a-guy-hung-an-offensive-sign-around-his-neck-to-make-a-solid-point-and-it-worked?c=ufb1

Trail mix? Oh, you mean M&M's with obstacles.

[FreeFallFiend 0]

Pssst...i replied to your previous post with that link

Interesting to see we drew similar if not the same conclusion.

Fiend

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.

[FreeFallFiend 0]

http://www.wlwt.com/national/who-is-stabbing-suspect-alex-hribal/25407476

Who wants to bet this kid was on some sort of behavioral modification drug(s)?

Fiend

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.

[jimmytavino 16]

FreeFallFiend

http://www.wlwt.com/national/who-is-stabbing-suspect-alex-hribal/25407476

Who wants to bet this kid was on some sort of behavioral modification drug(s)?

When WE were kids, "hyperactivity " was just part of the package...

We all had more energy than we needed, OR knew what to do with ,, and lots of kids were "problematic "..
The difference in the 50s and the 60s ???? we were never "taken to the therapist " or " medically evaluated " soas to have a Lifelong Label of some sorta "disability " tacked on to us..( in some cases today, THAT seems to be a GOAL of some parents for reasons which i can't conceive ) and then GIVEN "hard drugs" in some twisted attempt to FIX the child..
We were " eased out of misbehavior " by our parents . We GOt a swat on the ass, when we needed it. Hell, My Dear Father had his Own "behavior modification program " In Place , over 50 years ago...
Amazing what a "swift kick in the ass " could DO to Snap a Kid Out of it!!! ( always with the side of his foot and never with excessive malice)

Drug ???
Yup.. we were DRUG to the yard and told to clean it Up.
we were DRUG away from the playground IF we misbehaved.
We were DRUG to our room, when it was warranted...

NOW, in the last 20 or 30 years,, ( when spanking a child has become UNacceptable ) the result is that instead, we start molly-coddleing kids... tell them that They are "damaged" and start pumping medications of questionable effacy into them,, Creating not only the potential for life long dependence but also seemingly a built-in alibi for every little failing, wrong doing or inability to assimilate into society....
I do NOt advocate hitting kids and while it worked Ok when WE were young i. e. the 50's and 60 s , i seldom resorted to anything more than an open palm to the clothed buttocks of my own kids, and only between the ages of about 3 to 6 ...and always with a follow-up sit-down session to talk things through...

This young man, troubled as he May BE,, could well be the product of over zealous health care practicioners and frustrated parents....
An arm around the shoulder, a willing adult to really Listen to what was bugging him,,, a SMALL amount of peer acceptance!!!! instead of peer aversion, might have been all that was needed..
I have not read anything about WHAT type of knives he used... any idea?? are we taking about switchblades ? or hunting knives? or something he grabbed out of the kitchen drawer..??

This incident DOES go to show that we have a much deeper societal problem than one that can be FIXED,,, by ANY sort of legislation...How about instead of screwing with The Bill of Rights maybe we start implementing "Proper Parenting " Classes,,,, around about in JUNIOR High !!!and have those classes emphasize the need for TWO stable, Employed, responsible people, In a committed relationship and with a safe and secure HOME in which to raise such children.
imho

jmy

[PiLFy 0]

kawisixer01

***>People like myself who carry concealed are the types who would get involved and
> try to help others out

I am very glad that the assistant principal took this guy down, and did not try to use a gun to "help others out."

BILLVON
Nice of you to "edit" my post and completely gut out the point I was trying to make about our society being one of "watchers" instead of "helpers". I said exactly nothing about a principal using a gun, the point was that the people like myself that carry seem to be the only people with the mentality to protect and help rather than stand by. So is this how you moderate a forum? Edit people's responses to make them say what YOU want them to say?

Yep. That's BV's MO. A number of the other Mods know his games, & don't respect him because of it. No Worries. He'll soon get tired of editing your content, & just ban you . His way of NOT contributing ...

I see the point of your original post, & it's a valid one.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

kawisixer01

***>People like myself who carry concealed are the types who would get involved and
> try to help others out

I am very glad that the assistant principal took this guy down, and did not try to use a gun to "help others out."

BILLVON
Nice of you to "edit" my post and completely gut out the point I was trying to make about our society being one of "watchers" instead of "helpers". I said exactly nothing about a principal using a gun, the point was that the people like myself that carry seem to be the only people with the mentality to protect and help rather than stand by. So is this how you moderate a forum? Edit people's responses to make them say what YOU want them to say?If your argument was going to be that only people who carry concealed would get involved and try to help, then this incident is proof that you are wrong, as their is no evidence the vice principle was carrying (very very unlikely in a school), and he did get involved and help people out.

If you are motivated to carry in order to "help people out" I'd suggest you rethink such Walter Mitty impulses. If you want to carry to protect yourself, to have a last card to play when other options have evaporated, you have every right to do so. If you see yourself as a potential hero of the moment, stepping in between the bad guy and the damsel in distress, well people have got themselves killed doing that. I hope you at least have some kind of formal training in active shooter scenarios.

If the quote is your statement and BVs edit, I agree the message has been altered.

However, I have to say I agree a lot more with the BV version. Using a gun to take the guy down, in a crowded hallway full of panicked students, could well have produced more casualties than the knife-wielding attacker did.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Boogers 0]

GeorgiaDon

Using a gun to take the guy down, in a crowded hallway full of panicked students, could well have produced more casualties than the knife-wielding attacker did.

NOT using a gun could allow the attacker to stab YOU to death, and then continue his stabbing spree undeterred, which could well have produced even more casualties.

They got lucky by tackling him, but the use of a gun in this situation, had one been available, would most definitely have been justified.

[billvon 2,396]

>They got lucky by tackling him, but the use of a gun in this situation, had one
>been available, would most definitely have been justified.

Yep. Fortunately one was not available - and the student was stopped without further bloodshed.

[kelpdiver 2]

Boogers

NOT using a gun could allow the attacker to stab YOU to death, and then continue his stabbing spree undeterred, which could well have produced even more casualties.

eventually he'd get tired, right? just wait for muscle fatigue.

[kawisixer01 0]

GeorgiaDon

******>People like myself who carry concealed are the types who would get involved and
> try to help others out

I am very glad that the assistant principal took this guy down, and did not try to use a gun to "help others out."

BILLVON
Nice of you to "edit" my post and completely gut out the point I was trying to make about our society being one of "watchers" instead of "helpers". I said exactly nothing about a principal using a gun, the point was that the people like myself that carry seem to be the only people with the mentality to protect and help rather than stand by. So is this how you moderate a forum? Edit people's responses to make them say what YOU want them to say?If your argument was going to be that only people who carry concealed would get involved and try to help, then this incident is proof that you are wrong, as their is no evidence the vice principle was carrying (very very unlikely in a school), and he did get involved and help people out.

If you are motivated to carry in order to "help people out" I'd suggest you rethink such Walter Mitty impulses. If you want to carry to protect yourself, to have a last card to play when other options have evaporated, you have every right to do so. If you see yourself as a potential hero of the moment, stepping in between the bad guy and the damsel in distress, well people have got themselves killed doing that. I hope you at least have some kind of formal training in active shooter scenarios.

If the quote is your statement and BVs edit, I agree the message has been altered.

However, I have to say I agree a lot more with the BV version. Using a gun to take the guy down, in a crowded hallway full of panicked students, could well have produced more casualties than the knife-wielding attacker did.

Don

Actually no....my statement has nothing to do with the actual act of carrying a gun or using one, but rather the mindset of those who carry and those who don't. Had Billvon not taken advantage of his position as a moderator to hack my post to death and edit it to context to say what HE wanted it to say so that he could construct an argument maybe you could see that.
My point was that there are people in society who stand around and watch, or at worst in a mob situation, join in. There are those who are "entertained" and decide to take video for their own personal status or gain. And there are those who seek to help others, and despite what may be a higher risk to their own personal safety, strike back and try to help others. TYPICALLY those types fall into the type that would carry.
Do I have training? You bet. I take my right to carry VERY seriously and read and practice regularly, not to mention I spent four semesters in a criminal justice degree before switching to skilled trades. I do not in no way feel that whipping out a gun in any given situation is the correct protocol, I well know the ramifications of doing so. Often just showing the gun in the wrong situation can cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, pulling the bang switch will gain you a minimum of the night in jail, possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees, and possibly the rest of your life in jail. In fact in a majority of violent situations I have been presented with, had I been carrying I would not have touched my firearm, as they were already working themselves out. But you can bet your lunch I would be glad I had that option should I need it.

[billvon 2,396]

After reading your most recent post I am even more glad someone such as you describe was not at the scene of this stabbing, and that instead an assistant principal brought him down without guns or knives. (This time I am not replying to any specific part of your post, since that seems to anger you.)

[GoHuskers 0]

jimmytavino

How in the world is IT that this person managed to attack so many people, without having a MOB of others, physically overwhelm him and then taking him down???

People are afraid of knives. People are more afraid of knives than they are of guns. I've participated in combatives scenarios where an armed male tries to make his way across a large room with an overwhelming opposition force. In the pistol scenario (low velocity paint sims) 3-4 people get shot before a dogpile disarms him. In the knife scenario, they skirt the wall and are given a 2 arms length distance and make it to the door more often than not. People are afraid of knives.

[GoHuskers 0]

jimmytavino

maybe we start implementing "Proper Parenting " Classes,,,, around about in JUNIOR High !!!and have those classes emphasize the need for TWO stable, Employed, responsible people, In a committed relationship and with a safe and secure HOME in which to raise such children.

What? That sounds dangerously like advocating a relationship between a man and woman. Also seems discriminatory against the unemployed, incarcerated, and irresponsible. You can't do that today. Furthermore, if my kids school has a better teacher/student ratio than some other kids school than the message will be more effective and "the system" if preferentially teaching my child to be more successful than someone else's child. That further perpetuates the inheritance of wealth and keeps the folks in the class they were born into. All of which is not in line with current social trends.

Classes will also have to been screened by Child Protective Services because 1 branch of government can't propogate a message that another branch of government doesn't agree with and parenting classes are aimed at the raising of children which is of course CPS's lane. They also have to make sure that physical contact can NEVER be an appropriate intervention to bad behavior to protect against a legitmate abuse case with a misleading message from the 8th grade so they will more than likely ADVOCATE chemical intervention if they even have the gusto to address those rare situations where your child is not doing as you would like them to.

What your talking about sounds like something only a private school can accomplish.

[havoc996 0]

FreeFallFiend

Pssst...i replied to your previous post with that link

Interesting to see we drew similar if not the same conclusion.

I missed that.

Trail mix? Oh, you mean M&M's with obstacles.

[jimmytavino 16]

I specifically worded my comment , using the word "people" and NOT Husband & wife... so HOW can YOU interpret That, any OTHER way,,, AS You DID...And as for Both of them "being employed" THAT is only soas to lay the financial foundation needed, so that ONE of those two can THEN take a leave of absence To Raise the child / children OR so that they can consider alternating work and parenting in a timely way..

maybe your reply is sarcastic, or tongue -in-cheek

I can't tell.

you say, "rare situations where your child is not doing as you would like them to do "

RARE??? hahahaha Would I be correct in guessing that YOU, GoHuskers,,, do NOT have Kids????

As for "advocate chemical intervention "
Given the TRUE history of Mis-Diagnosis, which is rampant in all categories of our medical community,,, I vehemently DISAGREE with THAT,,,, except ONLY as a Last resort... and only AFTER a number of other possibilities, conversational intervention, establishment of SOME sort of Activities, hobbies, Interests etc...have been tried.
peace
jmy

[billvon 2,396]

>That sounds dangerously like advocating a relationship between a man and woman.

Nope.

>Also seems discriminatory against the unemployed, incarcerated, and irresponsible.

Unemployed? Nope.
Irresponsible? Nope. Just because you think someone is irresponsible doesn't mean anything about their parenting skills.
Incarcerated? Yes, criminals make worse parents.

[Zach 0]

As I was reading your scenario, I was trying to imagine myself in that situation. If a person was simply running away from everyone but not shooting/stabbing anyone, I'm not sure anyone would want to risk getting shot/stabbed just to stop the guy from exiting the room. If he's actively shooting/stabbing, I wonder if the fact that once you're out of arms reach, you're relatively safe from a knife wielding baddy plays a role in the outcome of the scenario. That is to say, if a dude is in a crowded room shooting up the place, there's not really a safe distance to be away from him in the room. Maybe the instinctual reaction (for some), if you were unable to escape the room, would be to do whatever it took to get the gun away before you end up getting shot while crouching in a corner, where as if he has a knife, it seems that people would try and get out of reach if they could.

TLDR - Baddy's choice of weapon, baddy's actions, and your initial proximity to baddy seem to dictate your response (in addition to other things like training, personality, etc.). <---This is as much of a question as it is a statement. I'm interested in your thoughts.

Zach

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

GeorgiaDon

If your argument was going to be that only people who carry concealed would get involved and try to help, then this incident is proof that you are wrong, as their is no evidence the vice principle was carrying (very very unlikely in a school), and he did get involved and help people out.

If you are motivated to carry in order to "help people out" I'd suggest you rethink such Walter Mitty impulses. If you want to carry to protect yourself, to have a last card to play when other options have evaporated, you have every right to do so. If you see yourself as a potential hero of the moment, stepping in between the bad guy and the damsel in distress, well people have got themselves killed doing that. I hope you at least have some kind of formal training in active shooter scenarios.

If the quote is your statement and BVs edit, I agree the message has been altered.

However, I have to say I agree a lot more with the BV version. Using a gun to take the guy down, in a crowded hallway full of panicked students, could well have produced more casualties than the knife-wielding attacker did.

Don

Part of the argument (at least a part that I see) is that far, far too many people have been taught to be passive.

To "give them what they want so they won't hurt you" to "not fight back no matter what."

How many schools have a "No violence what ever" policy? Where a student will be expelled for fighting back against a bully.

There are a lot people who think that teaching a kid boxing, karate or some other form of unarmed combat is teaching them to be violent.

Every state that has passed a concealed carry law has had to fight the "We will turn into the 'Wild West'" argument, made by people who won't fight back no matter what.

People who have carefully considered all the factors and have decided to carry (admittedly not all carry permit holders think it through all the way) have decided to fight back if there is no alternative.

I don't know what the actual situation was in the school, and accurately targeting an individual with a knife in a moving, confusing situation (which this almost certainly was), is very , very difficult.

And going up against a knife is a very dangerous proposition. The fact that it is only dangerous at contact range makes taking down a person armed with a knife a tough decision. A guy with a gun can shoot you at a reasonable distance, so you aren't 'safe' anywhere in the room. As long as you stay out of arms reach, the guy with the knife can't hurt you. Tables, pillars, closed doors, and such are all "knife proof."

But shouting "Drop it or I will shoot!!!" would have been an option.

It wouldn't have stopped someone who didn't care if they lived through the situation, but it would give pause to everyone else. That would give the bystanders a chance to get clear (maybe).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[RonD1120 58]

Has anyone picked up on this tragedy as a copy cat of the theme to the TV show "The Following?" In the show the character Joe Carroll is training his cult followers to inflict mass stabbings on the population.

And I am a fan of Kevin Bacon and his wife Kyra Sedgwick.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

After reading your most recent post I am even more glad someone such as you describe was not at the scene of this stabbing, and that instead an assistant principal brought him down without guns or knives. (This time I am not replying to any specific part of your post, since that seems to anger you.)

I wonder if the 19th and 20th kids stabbed, share your pleasure?

[billvon 2,396]

>I wonder if the 19th and 20th kids stabbed, share your pleasure?

I bet the kids who are alive, and not killed by an errant round, definitely do.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>I wonder if the 19th and 20th kids stabbed, share your pleasure?

I bet the kids who are alive, and not killed by an errant round, definitely do.

merely your preposition. But these ongoing fantastic claims about deaths by errant rounds have rarely seen any supporting data, other than from cops who don't seem to be held accountable very often. From CCW holders, it's a unicorn.

OTOH, it can be determined how many more defensive kids were stabbed after the inability of an adult who could have been carrying and respond with force.

And we also have plenty of case history where student shooters give up when they encounter armed people. If they're not planning to kill themselves, they give up readily. A kid with a knife is going to surrender to a person with a gun. Good chance it wouldn't even be necessary to fire. At the least, it is most probable that the kid stops going after other kids and retreats.