FreeFallFiend 0 #1 April 9, 2014 http://www.wlwt.com/national/20-injured-in-Pa-high-school-stabbings/25391818?utm_campaign=wlwt5&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=Hootsuite Don't hate me for trying to spin this so fast...I'm really just trying to say how i honestly feel. When can we finally admit that as a country we have a severe mental health problem and not an access to weapons problem?Fiend I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,122 #2 April 9, 2014 FreeFallFiendhttp://www.wlwt.com/national/20-injured-in-Pa-high-school-stabbings/25391818?utm_campaign=wlwt5&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=Hootsuite Don't hate me for trying to spin this so fast...I'm really just trying to say how i honestly feel. When can we finally admit that as a country we have a severe mental health problem and not an access to weapons problem? Your inability to provide health care makes the easy access to weapons just that more problematic. The solution for the US isn't trying to ban guns, it is improving health care and building a better society. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #3 April 9, 2014 SkyDekker***http://www.wlwt.com/national/20-injured-in-Pa-high-school-stabbings/25391818?utm_campaign=wlwt5&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=Hootsuite Don't hate me for trying to spin this so fast...I'm really just trying to say how i honestly feel. When can we finally admit that as a country we have a severe mental health problem and not an access to weapons problem? Your inability to provide health care makes the easy access to weapons just that more problematic. The solution for the US isn't trying to ban guns, it is improving health care and building a better society. The problem with trying to improve mental health care on the "front end" is the Constitution. I have the right not to seek treatment for the flu. Others have the right not to seek treatment for whatever is running through their minds. Until the Constitution is changed, it's how we are. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #4 April 9, 2014 QuoteI have the right not to seek treatment for the flu.Sure. But do you have a right to go around infecting other people? How about if you have AIDS, or extensively drug-resistant TB? Is there any point, in your world view, at which your right to inflict your disease on others can be restricted? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #5 April 9, 2014 What if I don't want to "catch" autism??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
havoc996 0 #6 April 9, 2014 I think what we have in this country is an ambivalence problem. We all preach doing the right thing but then simply watch when someone falls through the cracks. How many of us have sat in a line and watched someone getting more and more frustrated while the person dealing with them just sits there repeating the same (regulation,rule,reason for their inability to do a thing)? The same thing happens with bullying in schools. It's easy to preach what you should do when you witness bullying or any other kind of injustice from the safety of a keyboard. But when you may possibly have to confront the bully and put yourself at any risk most people walk away and discuss how wrong what they just witnessed was, post it on some social media or worst of all take out their camera to take a video. People aren't walking the walk. If we truly want to change things, then it's going to take all of us doing the hard right over the easy wrong. No laws or rules are going to fix this problem if when the action needs to be taken, nobody acts. My personal opinion is that a whole lot (not all) but a whole lot of these mass killings/attacks are done by a person who is not insane but at the end of their rope. They have been bullied or wronged for so long they finally snap. I have no idea what makes them think this is the best course of action but assume they are so full of hate and pain that they lash out in an effort to make others feel what they themselves feel (often it seems on their perceived offender or those who stood by and did nothing). Rather than waiting for it to get to the point of acting in a potentially dangerous situation, what I am suggesting is everyone recognize when something they're witnessing is a cog in the wheel of a final blowout. In the end I think only actions from people willing to risk something in order to show another that they aren't completely alone and someone actually cares, will solve the problem. This video shows many times what I am talking about. See someone fall on the tracks and out of 30+ people... 29 are pointing at the person and 1 is on the tracks not content to watch what is about to happen and do nothing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMYrIi_Mt8ATrail mix? Oh, you mean M&M's with obstacles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #7 April 9, 2014 normiss What if I don't want to "catch" autism??? I wasn't aware that autism was contagious.To spell things out for you, although you have a right to refuse medical treatment if you are sick, there are constraints on your ability to inflict that illness on others. Here in Georgia we recently had a fellow convicted and sent to jail for failing to inform several sex partners (some of whom became infected) that he had HIV. If you have certain diseases you can refuse treatment, but you will be quarantined as long as you are infectious. I am curious about LawRocket's opinion of the constitutionality of such restrictions. I can see an argument that one should know that unprotected sex with someone you don't know really really well exposes you to risk of all kinds of diseases, including HIV. On the other hand, is it reasonable to argue that I am knowingly assuming a risk of being infected with drug-resistant TB every time I venture into a situation where other people are present? Does the constitution allow any protection of the public at the cost of restricting the freedom of patients with highly infectious lethal diseases? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #8 April 9, 2014 normiss What if I don't want to "catch" autism??? Not subscribing to the Jenny McCarthy school of medicine are you?Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #9 April 9, 2014 QuoteI think what we have in this country is an ambivalence problem. We all preach doing the right thing but then simply watch when someone falls through the cracks.I can't disagree. However, even if you want to help someone, legally all you can do is try to convince them to seek help/treatment. If the problem is a mental illness such as paranoia or schizophrenia, virtually all patients do not recognize their illness. They hear what they hear/see what they see/feel what they feel, and you are the crazy one if you insist it isn't true. I once had an employee who obviously had paranoid schizophrenia; she was absolutely convinced that the police, people from her church, and others were following her and plotting against her. She often claimed to "overhear" people speaking about her when she was shopping, riding the bus, etc. She removed all the batteries from the smoke detectors in her apartment because she was convinced they were really cameras planted to watch her; by doing that she potentially exposed everyone in the building to risk had a fire started in her apartment. However as her employer there was nothing I could do to get her treatment, unless I was willing to sign an affidavit that she was suicidal or had made specific credible threats against specific people. Her illness made her own life miserable, but there was no way I claim she had threatened to harm herself or others. It was sad to watch, as she was a nice person but scared and lonely, yet any relationship never lasted beyond a date or two and ended as soon as people realized she was "not all there". Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,122 #10 April 9, 2014 lawrocket******http://www.wlwt.com/national/20-injured-in-Pa-high-school-stabbings/25391818?utm_campaign=wlwt5&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=Hootsuite Don't hate me for trying to spin this so fast...I'm really just trying to say how i honestly feel. When can we finally admit that as a country we have a severe mental health problem and not an access to weapons problem? Your inability to provide health care makes the easy access to weapons just that more problematic. The solution for the US isn't trying to ban guns, it is improving health care and building a better society. The problem with trying to improve mental health care on the "front end" is the Constitution. I have the right not to seek treatment for the flu. Others have the right not to seek treatment for whatever is running through their minds. Until the Constitution is changed, it's how we are. You don't think there are improvements between where you are now and the forceable treatment of the mentally ill? You think only those refusing to seek treatment are falling through the cracks? That is the only group left to deal with? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,121 #11 April 9, 2014 Quote Her illness made her own life miserable, but there was no way I claim she had threatened to harm herself or others. It was sad to watch, as she was a nice person but scared and lonely, yet any relationship never lasted beyond a date or two and ended as soon as people realized she was "not all there". We don't know enough about mental illness to treat it effectively in many cases; patients often think the cure is worse than the disease (as was the case with pre-20th-century medicine for many other things). We're smart enough to recognize it, but we really don't have the tools to do anything about it yet on a broad scale. The scary thing will be if the tools for mental control at the biochemical level that are effective enough for the majority of mental health issues become available. Because then some governmental or other large entity will want to use them to move people in a "desirable" direction. What happens if we who think that we're mentally healthy (but skydive, or whatever) become the targets? How many people think the mass drugging of very active children for ADD and/or ADHD is OK? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeFallFiend 0 #12 April 9, 2014 havoc996I think what we have in this country is an ambivalence problem. We all preach doing the right thing but then simply watch when someone falls through the cracks. I agree, i think that is part of the problem as well. People always want to scream and shout that something is wrong but then never want to make the effort to try and make it better. http://www.upworthy.com/a-guy-hung-an-offensive-sign-around-his-neck-to-make-a-solid-point-and-it-worked?g=2&c=ufb1Fiend I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,398 #13 April 9, 2014 > When can we finally admit that as a country we have a severe mental health >problem and not an access to weapons problem? We have both, although the mental health problem is arguably more serious. You can't just ban weapons and solve all problems. But you can restrict access to them for people with serious mental health problems as _part_ of how you treat the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #14 April 9, 2014 billvon> When can we finally admit that as a country we have a severe mental health >problem and not an access to weapons problem? We have both, although the mental health problem is arguably more serious. You can't just ban weapons and solve all problems. But you can restrict access to them for people with serious mental health problems as _part_ of how you treat the problem. something that we actually do, for guns, but not for other potential instruments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #15 April 9, 2014 FreeFallFiendhttp://www.wlwt.com/national/20-injured-in-Pa-high-school-stabbings/25391818?utm_campaign=wlwt5&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=Hootsuite Don't hate me for trying to spin this so fast...I'm really just trying to say how i honestly feel. When can we finally admit that as a country we have a severe mental health problem and not an access to weapons problem? And can you imagine the death toll if the suspect had a gun?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #16 April 9, 2014 QuoteYour inability to provide health care makes the easy access to weapons just that more problematic. The solution for the US isn't trying to ban guns, it is improving health care and building a better society. If it wasn't for the fact that people were injured (one who was critically injured) what you wrote here would be comical with a heavy dose of hypocrisy. You really should not be throwing all those stones from your glass house. Multiple stabbings at Toronto office leave 1 critical - April 9th, 2014 Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #17 April 9, 2014 quade***http://www.wlwt.com/national/20-injured-in-Pa-high-school-stabbings/25391818?utm_campaign=wlwt5&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=Hootsuite Don't hate me for trying to spin this so fast...I'm really just trying to say how i honestly feel. When can we finally admit that as a country we have a severe mental health problem and not an access to weapons problem? And can you imagine the death toll if the suspect had a gun? Imagine the no injuries if there was a "No stabbing zone" sign posted.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #18 April 9, 2014 devildog******http://www.wlwt.com/national/20-injured-in-Pa-high-school-stabbings/25391818?utm_campaign=wlwt5&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=Hootsuite Don't hate me for trying to spin this so fast...I'm really just trying to say how i honestly feel. When can we finally admit that as a country we have a severe mental health problem and not an access to weapons problem? And can you imagine the death toll if the suspect had a gun? Imagine the no injuries if there was a "No stabbing zone" sign posted. People with violent mental issues will always have access to some sort of weapon. It makes sense to limit the amount of damage they can do by denying them easy access to ones with standoff capabilities, high rates of fire, and high likelihood of death resulting from use. It's not about "gun free zones." It's about keeping higher death rates of the hands of loonies.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #19 April 9, 2014 How in the world is IT that this person managed to attack so many people, without having a MOB of others, physically overwhelm him and then taking him down???Could Not a group of 5 or more, have overpowered the attacker??? and disarmed him??? I KNOW there would have been the risk of injury and MAYBE some of those who WERE hurt , had That occur while they were "aggressing " the attacker.. Frankly I have not read enough of the reports to know exactly just what happened... I would think that in full view of dozens of people, the violence would have been negated by bystanders...way before the toll reached near 20. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #20 April 10, 2014 jimmytavino How in the world is IT that this person managed to attack so many people, without having a MOB of others, physically overwhelm him and then taking him down??? It all depends on the circumstance and crowd. Imagine a typical school hallway between classes and a loony running through it with a box cutter. I think he could probably injure/slash quite a few people before people realized what was going on if he was just running straight through the crowd. If he stopped at each one, stabbed them, ran to another one, stopped, stabbed...then your comment makes sense, but just running through a crowd? I can totally see that happening. We might find out more a bit later.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #21 April 10, 2014 QuoteThe problem with trying to improve mental health care on the "front end" is the Constitution. I don't believe that. Rosalyn Carter spent years as first lady working across both isles to get the Mental Health System Act passed into law. That law would have earmarked eight-hundred million dollars a year for mental health. Then Reagan was elected and within his first month, gutted the program of funding, and the law has effectively been nullified. The enemy of mental healthcare isn't the Constitution, it is the GOP. And we are, every year, seeing fallout from people who are not receiving the treatment they need. http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=32339Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kawisixer01 0 #22 April 10, 2014 >People like myself who carry concealed are the types who would get involved and > try to help others out I am very glad that the assistant principal took this guy down, and did not try to use a gun to "help others out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #23 April 10, 2014 kelpdiver***> When can we finally admit that as a country we have a severe mental health >problem and not an access to weapons problem? We have both, although the mental health problem is arguably more serious. You can't just ban weapons and solve all problems. But you can restrict access to them for people with serious mental health problems as _part_ of how you treat the problem. something that we actually do, for guns,... No, we do not. We give lip service only, while steadfastly doing almost nothing.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kawisixer01 0 #24 April 10, 2014 kawisixer01>People like myself who carry concealed are the types who would get involved and > try to help others out I am very glad that the assistant principal took this guy down, and did not try to use a gun to "help others out." BILLVON Nice of you to "edit" my post and completely gut out the point I was trying to make about our society being one of "watchers" instead of "helpers". I said exactly nothing about a principal using a gun, the point was that the people like myself that carry seem to be the only people with the mentality to protect and help rather than stand by. So is this how you moderate a forum? Edit people's responses to make them say what YOU want them to say? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #25 April 10, 2014 [Reply]Then Reagan was elected and within his first month, gutted the program of funding, and the law has effectively been nullified Hmm. Take a look at this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/O'Connor_v._Donaldson So all those people who were previously just locked away in mental hospitals were put on the streets. And this shit happened BEFORE Reagan. Turns out you cannot make a person get treatment unless that person is an immediate danger to himself or others. As much as people want. Meanwhile, Reagan took a step towards ending the summary and widespread warehousing of weirdos, faggots and retards when, as governor of california, he signed the Lanterman-Short-Petris Act. Read about it. And take a look at what it did versus what Rosalyn Carter did. Yes, there are Constitutional protections. The mentally ill get the same rights and anyone else. So, how are we going to force people into treatment without violating the Constitution? Nobody has figured it out - 40 years later. Got any ideas? Love to hear them. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
