What would a Republican president do about Ukraine?

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

The last Republican president didn't do anything close to that when Russia invaded a country - perhaps you can remind us what that president did in response to the invasion of Georgia

So you are implying that all Republicans think EXACTLY alike? I trust you're not implying this for that would be absurd. The question posed here is a "What if." So, there's my "straw man."
On the other hand, I could be dead dead wrong.

[kallend 1,623]

CanuckInUSA

They wouldn't do this.

Avoiding the question by weaseling.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

muff528

We did not promise Georgia that we would help ensure their security in exchange for them turning a formidable deterrent (i.e., nukes inherited post USSR) over to the very country that now threatens the security of a country that did just that. We tricked the Ukraine into de-nuking.

We do NOT have a defense treaty with Ukraine. What we made in Budapest (1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances) was a memorandum of understanding that essentially promised that WE would not violate their sovereignty. It did NOT say that we would smite anyone else who did violate their sovereignty.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[muff528 3]

kallend

***

We did not promise Georgia that we would help ensure their security in exchange for them turning a formidable deterrent (i.e., nukes inherited post USSR) over to the very country that now threatens the security of a country that did just that. We tricked the Ukraine into de-nuking.

We do NOT have a defense treaty with Ukraine. What we made in Budapest (1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances) was a memorandum of understanding that essentially promised that WE would not violate their sovereignty. It did NOT say that we would smite anyone else who did violate their sovereignty.

Correct, it doesn't require us to attack a violator and I certainly wouldn't expect us to do that. I would expect us "...to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine", ...along with our applying meaningful sanctions and providing hardware to Ukraine and surrounding countries to discourage further aggression.

"4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used;"

Maybe the "...in which nuclear weapons are used" part is attached to the bold part, maybe not. Either way, I suppose it does give the signors a weasel point if they need it. But, it wouldn't make much sense or do much good for Ukrainians if we had to wait until after they were actually nuked to ask the UNSC to "provide assistance".

[kelpdiver 2]

jclalor

***It is in the realm of possibility to surmise that if Mitt Romney had been elected we would not be facing this dilemma. BHO revealed himself to be a wuss a long time ago. Thus V. Putin calculated his strategy for a time such as this. It is KGB mentality versus ACORN mentality.

I just thank my lucky stars that McCain/Palin are not in the White House.

We'd all be parajumping into the fray...unless we contributed 10k to the GOP party.

[kelpdiver 2]

shropshire

"What would a Republican president do about Ukraine?"

Invade the Sudan... or anywhere else relatively safe and unconnected

Cruise missile strike on Syria, I venture.

[turtlespeed 212]

At least we can take away their credit card abilities.


But that didn't last long.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jclalor 12]

muff528

******Go back to Poland and put the missile shield back in. Do the same for Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. Increase naval presence in the Mediterranean. Open up domestic drilling and get off as much foriegn oil as possible WHILE at the same time, allowing the private sector incentives to develop alternate energy technologies. Kick Russia off the G-8 and most favored nation status and freeze credit for Russian companies currently doing business in the United States and see if NATO partners will do the same. Maintain current nuclear weapons levels and do not enter into further strategic arms reductions negotiations. Any shots fired or war started in this proposal?

This is not what a GOP president would do. It's probably what should be done, but no president, Dem, GOP or otherwise, would do those things. These kinds of decisions are weighed and made solely on their domestic political ramifications. Treaties and promises be damned.

Quote

The last Republican president didn't do anything close to that when Russia invaded a country - perhaps you can remind us what that president did in response to the invasion of Georgia

We did not promise Georgia that we would help ensure their security in exchange for them turning a formidable deterrent (i.e., nukes inherited post USSR) over to the very country that now threatens the security of a country that did just that. We tricked the Ukraine into de-nuking, and now we're letting them twist in the wind. We have not followed through with any promise of any meaningful support since WW2. Just ask the Koreans, the Cuban counter-revs., the Vietnamese, the Iranians, the Iraqis, the Afghanis, the Libyans, the Egyptians, the Kurds, the Contras, etc., etc., etc. Anyone else (Israel, the Baltics, NATO, et al.) who is counting on the US when things get dicey better watch their backs. Disgusting, really. It pains me to realize that the last President who followed through with such a commitment was FDR's Lend-Lease in 1940 and subsequent support.

Well, we did run the commies out of Grenada ...almost forgot about that one.

And it was a very good thing, regardless of how we got the nukes out of Ukraine. I don't recall a treaty, let alone a ratified treaty with Ukraine. It was very much in the direct interest of the US not to have every former Soviet republic not keep their Soviet nukes. Ukraine was also never going to keep the nukes anyways, they knew they did not have the facilities or the billions of dollars to maintain them.

The Ukraine and Russia have a long and complicated history, longer than we've been a country, I'm a bit tired of being the world's police and spending more on defense than almost the rest of the world combined. Perhaps it's best to start with economic sanctions and go from there instead of doing what the pundits at Fox want to do.

"I looked deep into the man's eyes. I was able to get a sense of his soul" Can you honestly imagine if Obama had said that?

FWIW, I found this pretty interesting.


http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2011/5/trilateral%20process%20pifer/05_trilateral_process_pifer.pdf#page8

[muff528 3]

Just to develop the thought a little further --

IMO, I think it is clear that the Ukraine has "become a victim of an act of aggression". But, if we interpret paragraph 4 to (partly) mean "to provide assistance to Ukraine ... if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression ...in which nuclear weapons are used", then any Security Council "assistance" could/would almost certainly have to lead to a nuclear retaliation. What other "assistance" would have any meaning after they have been nuked? That seems to be a much more dangerous interpretation.

[muff528 3]

jclalor

And it was a very good thing, regardless of how we got the nukes out of Ukraine. I don't recall a treaty, let alone a ratified treaty with Ukraine. It was very much in the direct interest of the US not to have every former Soviet republic not keep their Soviet nukes. Ukraine was also never going to keep the nukes anyways, they knew they did not have the facilities or the billions of dollars to maintain them.

Hard to say. But, I think I would rather have had Ukraine turn the nukes over to us than to Russia.

Quote

The Ukraine and Russia have a long and complicated history, longer than we've been a country, I'm a bit tired of being the world's police and spending more on defense than almost the rest of the world combined.

Still, no justification for aggression. If anything, it's the Ukrainians who have a score to settle with the Russians.

Quote

Perhaps it's best to start with economic sanctions and go from there instead of doing what the pundits at Fox want to do.

Which "pundits at Fox" want to do what? I'm not being contentious ...just haven't heard anything from the punditry. (no cable or satellite TV here).

Quote

"I looked deep into the man's eyes. I was able to get a sense of his soul" Can you honestly imagine if Obama had said that?

meh.

Quote

FWIW, I found this pretty interesting.


http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2011/5/trilateral%20process%20pifer/05_trilateral_process_pifer.pdf#page8

Yeah, it is. I skimmed through it but it's a little long. I saved the pdf to read later. Thanks.

But my point is that we need to quit signing stupid shit if we have no intention of backing it up. It really trashes our credibility. Might be a good idea if incoming presidents would review these agreements and treaties to see if they are compatible with current geo-political realities and our national interests, and to see if they mesh with his foreign policy. Sitting presidents, too, should periodically review these things.

[RonD1120 58]

muff528

Well, we did run the commies out of Grenada ...almost forgot about that one.

Didn't the Monroe Doctrine cover that one?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

jclalor

"I looked deep into the man's eyes. I was able to get a sense of his soul" Can you honestly imagine if Obama had said that?

No I cannot. I do not believe BHO has any awareness of a soul other than his own. He is a narcissist.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

quade

***It is in the realm of possibility to surmise that if Mitt Romney had been elected we would not be facing this dilemma. BHO revealed himself to be a wuss a long time ago. Thus V. Putin calculated his strategy for a time such as this.

This is nonsense. The amount of consideration Putin has given to the person sitting in the Oval on this is nil. He pretty much knows that whoever sits in the chair on a particular day isn't going to go to war over this. How do I know? Because of history.

Quote

It is KGB mentality versus ACORN mentality.

You are aware neither exists anymore; right?

FYI:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/white-house/why-putin-plays-our-presidents-for-fools-20140302

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,254]

Boomerdog

Go back to Poland and put the missile shield back in. Do the same for Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. Increase naval presence in the Mediterranean. Open up domestic drilling and get off as much foriegn oil as possible WHILE at the same time, allowing the private sector incentives to develop alternate energy technologies. Kick Russia off the G-8 and most favored nation status and freeze credit for Russian companies currently doing business in the United States and see if NATO partners will do the same. Maintain current nuclear weapons levels and do not enter into further strategic arms reductions negotiations. Any shots fired or war started in this proposal?

Maybe, maybe not.

That doesn't really matter though, because a lot of it is either impossible or not under the control of the USA.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jclalor 12]

RonD1120

***

"I looked deep into the man's eyes. I was able to get a sense of his soul" Can you honestly imagine if Obama had said that?

No I cannot. I do not believe BHO has any awareness of a soul other than his own. He is a narcissist.

Matthew 7:1

[Elisha 1]

Looks like Russia HAS been kicked out of the G-8.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/politics/obama-europe-trip/index.html

[billvon 2,400]

>What would a Republican president do about Ukraine?

Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Putin . . .

[kelpdiver 2]

Elisha

Looks like Russia HAS been kicked out of the G-8.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/politics/obama-europe-trip/index.html

Now just kick out Italy (WTF?) too, and rename it the G6.

[funjumper101 15]

RonD1120

***

"I looked deep into the man's eyes. I was able to get a sense of his soul" Can you honestly imagine if Obama had said that?

No I cannot. I do not believe BHO has any awareness of a soul other than his own. He is a narcissist.

More parroted bullshit from the Tribe leaders?

Or is this something you found in your book of fables that you live by?

Where do you come up with such inane bullshit? Faux Spews? The drug addled gas bag's radio show? Newsmax?

.

[jdkalou 0]

Neither Rep. or Dem. President should do anything about it. It's not our problem, issue, or business. Stay the hell out of everyone else's business for once.

[muff528 3]

I think that one of the reasons we always have to get up in everyone else's business is that we are everyone else.

[RonD1120 58]

jclalor

******

"I looked deep into the man's eyes. I was able to get a sense of his soul" Can you honestly imagine if Obama had said that?

No I cannot. I do not believe BHO has any awareness of a soul other than his own. He is a narcissist.

Matthew 7:1

You asked a question, I responded. You don't like the answer and cry foul.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

funjumper101

******

"I looked deep into the man's eyes. I was able to get a sense of his soul" Can you honestly imagine if Obama had said that?

No I cannot. I do not believe BHO has any awareness of a soul other than his own. He is a narcissist.

More parroted bullshit from the Tribe leaders?

Or is this something you found in your book of fables that you live by?

Where do you come up with such inane bullshit? Faux Spews? The drug addled gas bag's radio show? Newsmax?

.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Nelyubin 0]

jclalor

...
The last Republican president didn't do anything close to that when Russia invaded a country - perhaps you can remind us what that president did in response to the invasion of Georgia

Russia attacked Georgia?
You don't make laugh my slippers.
FYI:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Russia%E2%80%93Georgia_war

The Budapest memorandum - 3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.

Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland spoke at "Ukraine in Washington 2013" conference organized by U.S.- Ukraine Foundation on December 13.
"We invested more than 5 billions..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkAjnMtazDE
Silence gold ;)

I don't think that republicans are capable of sharper acts.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Russia attacked Georgia?
You don't make laugh my slippers.

http://www.tacticalfanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Tactical_Slippers.jpg