The Hobby Lobby case

[billvon 2,684]

>So I submit that individual members have beliefs and that some members have
>more clout than others, but organizations, being inanimate abstract objects, can't
>possibly believe anything.

So the GOP can't possibly have any prejudices, or believe anything, or have a certain set of morals? I will remember that the next time you go off on them.

[Amazon 7]

billvon

>So I submit that individual members have beliefs and that some members have
>more clout than others, but organizations, being inanimate abstract objects, can't
>possibly believe anything.

So the GOP can't possibly have any prejudices, or believe anything, or have a certain set of morals? I will remember that the next time you go off on them.

It has been my experience that many of the current GOP have a fluidity of morality that is really going to upset the Lord that many of them claim to follow.

[kelpdiver 2]

kallend

So I submit that individual members have beliefs and that some members have more clout than others, but organizations, being inanimate abstract objects, can't possibly believe anything.

As an example, the Boy Scouts of America believe that gays should not be scoutmasters. That's isn't shared by all its members, but the organization believes and enforces it.

[quade 4]

kelpdiver

***
So I submit that individual members have beliefs and that some members have more clout than others, but organizations, being inanimate abstract objects, can't possibly believe anything.

As an example, the Boy Scouts of America believe that gays should not be scoutmasters. That's isn't shared by all its members, but the organization believes and enforces it.

I think a few people in this discussion are trapped into their positions due to the ambiguity of the English language.

"The organization" does not "believe" anything. It doesn't have a consciousness. What it does have are individuals ("leaders") who have written statements for its members to follow as an organization, but the organizations do not, can not, and are incapable of "belief."

This applies to the Catholic Church as well as The Boy Scouts of America. The proof of this is how any of the organizational leaders; Pope, council, Congress, The Supreme Court, and whatever the f they call the head Boy Scout, could change the "organizational belief" with a simple stroke of a pen. One day the Catholic Church says mass can only be held using latin and no singing and the next . . . boom . . . that belief is gone. One day slavery is just a fact of life, and the next gone. One day abortions are illegal and the next legal.

"The organization" didn't change its mind. People did.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[grue 1]

kelpdiver

***
So I submit that individual members have beliefs and that some members have more clout than others, but organizations, being inanimate abstract objects, can't possibly believe anything.

As an example, the Boy Scouts of America believe that gays should not be scoutmasters. That's isn't shared by all its members, but the organization believes and enforces it.

…and yet they get support from the US government.

cavete terrae.

[bluskidave 0]

Slavery prostitution is more prevalent than ever now.Just so much more refined and accepted by an immoral look the other way society !

[turtlespeed 212]

bluskidave

Slavery prostitution is more prevalent than ever now.Just so much more refined and accepted by an immoral look the other way society !

Only because of the population increase since it started being measured, if it really ever has.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 4]

bluskidave

Slavery prostitution is more prevalent than ever now.Just so much more refined and accepted by an immoral look the other way society !

Everything humans do is more prevalent now compared to Biblical times (let's call that year "zero"). There were about 300m people on the planet then and about 7,000m now.

According to US State Department estimates, there are about 27 million slaves on the planet and about 1 million of those are child sex slaves. While that's a horrifying number I do not believe it is higher ratio to global population than it was in Biblical times. They simply called the vast majority of it something else; marriage, concubine, harem, "privilege," whatever.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 212]

quade

***Slavery prostitution is more prevalent than ever now.Just so much more refined and accepted by an immoral look the other way society !

Everything humans do is more prevalent now compared to Biblical times. There were about 300m people on the planet then and about 7,000m now.

According to US State Department estimates, there are about 27 million slaves on the planet and about 1 million of those are child sex slaves. While that's a horrifying number I do not believe it is higher ratio to global population than it was in Biblical times. They simply called the vast majority of it something else; marriage, concubine, harem, "privilege," whatever.

Did we just agree on something?

Unwittingly?

Not that tat's a bad thing . . . just curious.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rushmc 18]

The ACA mandates 20 different contraceptice drugs and devices be paid for by the employer
Hobby Lobby is objecting to only 4 of them (might be six as I cant remember)
The ONLY ones they are objecting to are those that cause or can cause an abortion
They are NOT obecting to any constraceptives
As for corportations status?
This will be answered in June of this year

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,799]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

So I submit that individual members have beliefs and that some members have more clout than others, but organizations, being inanimate abstract objects, can't possibly believe anything.

So then, can organizations have principles? Is there a difference between asking someone to violate their beliefs, and asking them to violate their principles?

I can see the semantic argument that you would need to have some form of self-awareness to believe something, but in this case "beliefs" is pretty much synonymous with "principles".

Don

I believe organizations can have interests, and stated positions.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 58]

‘This Is Dangerous’: Dana Loesch Has a Dire Warning for Progressives Over ‘Hobby Lobby’ Case
Mar. 28, 2014 8:00pm Erica Ritz



http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/28/this-is-dangerous-dana-loesch-has-a-dire-warning-for-progressives-over-hobby-lobby-case/

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[tkhayes 242]

Dana Loesch is a talk show host who is a college drop-out. her opinion is all of that - her opinion, and she twists true legal stuff into an emotional plea. Great way to run a country and surely a basis for the Supreme Court to be swinging her way....not.

https://www.facebook.com/therachelmaddowshow/posts/10151677705569067

Rachel Maddow has a lot to say about the hobby lobby case; little of it emotional, and most of it factual based on the case law, prior Supreme Court decisions, human rights, the history of those rights, failed attempts to take over the country in the past by religious zealots etc.

And she has a doctorate. And she has her own show as well, but unlike your host, she actually is smart.

Guess who more people are going to listen to?

correct.

[rushmc 18]

tkhayes

Dana Loesch is a talk show host who is a college drop-out. her opinion is all of that - her opinion, and she twists true legal stuff into an emotional plea. Great way to run a country and surely a basis for the Supreme Court to be swinging her way....not.

https://www.facebook.com/therachelmaddowshow/posts/10151677705569067

Rachel Maddow has a lot to say about the hobby lobby case; little of it emotional, and most of it factual based on the case law, prior Supreme Court decisions, human rights, the history of those rights, failed attempts to take over the country in the past by religious zealots etc.

And she has a doctorate. And she has her own show as well, but unlike your host, she actually is smart.

Guess who more people are going to listen to?

correct.

People should and do listen to the truth
So
Once again
The ACA would have employers pay for a bit over 30 different kinds and types of birth control
The owners of the Hobby Lobby object to 4
These for can or do cause an abortion
The crazy emotional screaming is coming from the left
And no matter the ruling,, NO ONE will not have access to these drugs a devices. The argument is who the government is forcing to pay for them

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[RonD1120 58]

rushmc

***Dana Loesch is a talk show host who is a college drop-out. her opinion is all of that - her opinion, and she twists true legal stuff into an emotional plea. Great way to run a country and surely a basis for the Supreme Court to be swinging her way....not.

https://www.facebook.com/therachelmaddowshow/posts/10151677705569067

Rachel Maddow has a lot to say about the hobby lobby case; little of it emotional, and most of it factual based on the case law, prior Supreme Court decisions, human rights, the history of those rights, failed attempts to take over the country in the past by religious zealots etc.

And she has a doctorate. And she has her own show as well, but unlike your host, she actually is smart.

Guess who more people are going to listen to?

correct.

People should and do listen to the truth
So
Once again
The ACA would have employers pay for a bit over 30 different kinds and types of birth control
The owners of the Hobby Lobby object to 4
These for can or do cause an abortion
The crazy emotional screaming is coming from the left
And no matter the ruling,, NO ONE will not have access to these drugs a devices. The argument is who the government is forcing to pay for them

That is the way I understand the issue. Hobby Lobby objects to being forced by the government to fund abortions. The figure I heard was 27 FDA approved types of contraception, 23 accomplish that goal and Hobby Lobby is in compliance. Four types or methods are abortive and they object to being required to fund them. The left always screams on the half or partial truths to push the progressive/socialist agenda.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

I'll see your Rachel Maddow and raise you S.E. Cupp.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[davjohns 1]

tkhayes

Dana Loesch is a talk show host who is a college drop-out. her opinion is all of that - her opinion, and she twists true legal stuff into an emotional plea. Great way to run a country and surely a basis for the Supreme Court to be swinging her way....not.

https://www.facebook.com/therachelmaddowshow/posts/10151677705569067

Rachel Maddow has a lot to say about the hobby lobby case; little of it emotional, and most of it factual based on the case law, prior Supreme Court decisions, human rights, the history of those rights, failed attempts to take over the country in the past by religious zealots etc.

And she has a doctorate. And she has her own show as well, but unlike your host, she actually is smart.

Guess who more people are going to listen to.

The one with the biggest boobs?

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Amazon 7]

RonD1120

I'll see your Rachel Maddow and raise you S.E. Cupp.

How about I raise you a little bit of REALITY


Seems they don't REALLLY have an issue now does it.

[kallend 1,799]

RonD1120

******Dana Loesch is a talk show host who is a college drop-out. her opinion is all of that - her opinion, and she twists true legal stuff into an emotional plea. Great way to run a country and surely a basis for the Supreme Court to be swinging her way....not.

https://www.facebook.com/therachelmaddowshow/posts/10151677705569067

Rachel Maddow has a lot to say about the hobby lobby case; little of it emotional, and most of it factual based on the case law, prior Supreme Court decisions, human rights, the history of those rights, failed attempts to take over the country in the past by religious zealots etc.

And she has a doctorate. And she has her own show as well, but unlike your host, she actually is smart.

Guess who more people are going to listen to?

correct.

People should and do listen to the truth
So
Once again
The ACA would have employers pay for a bit over 30 different kinds and types of birth control
The owners of the Hobby Lobby object to 4
These for can or do cause an abortion
The crazy emotional screaming is coming from the left
And no matter the ruling,, NO ONE will not have access to these drugs a devices. The argument is who the government is forcing to pay for them

That is the way I understand the issue. Hobby Lobby objects to being forced by the government to fund abortions. The figure I heard was 27 FDA approved types of contraception, 23 accomplish that goal and Hobby Lobby is in compliance. Four types or methods are abortive and they object to being required to fund them. The left always screams on the half or partial truths to push the progressive/socialist agenda.

Of course, you forgot to mention that Hobby Lobby was paying for these right up until they became associated with the ACA. Then they suddenly became evil.

HYPOCRITES!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 58]

kallend

***



That is the way I understand the issue. Hobby Lobby objects to being forced by the government to fund abortions. The figure I heard was 27 FDA approved types of contraception, 23 accomplish that goal and Hobby Lobby is in compliance. Four types or methods are abortive and they object to being required to fund them. The left always screams on the half or partial truths to push the progressive/socialist agenda.

Of course, you forgot to mention that Hobby Lobby was paying for these right up until they became associated with the ACA. Then they suddenly became evil.

HYPOCRITES!

Are you saying you have evidence that Hobby Lobby paid for the four abortive procedures prior to the enactment of Obamacare?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rushmc 18]

RonD1120

******



That is the way I understand the issue. Hobby Lobby objects to being forced by the government to fund abortions. The figure I heard was 27 FDA approved types of contraception, 23 accomplish that goal and Hobby Lobby is in compliance. Four types or methods are abortive and they object to being required to fund them. The left always screams on the half or partial truths to push the progressive/socialist agenda.

Of course, you forgot to mention that Hobby Lobby was paying for these right up until they became associated with the ACA. Then they suddenly became evil.

HYPOCRITES!

Are you saying you have evidence that Hobby Lobby paid for the four abortive procedures prior to the enactment of Obamacare?

Don't hold your breath

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[RonD1120 58]

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rushmc 18]

RonD1120

Did you also note that providing this stuff is a right?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tkhayes 242]

Quote

The ACA would have employers pay for a bit over 30 different kinds and types of birth control

That is not entirely factually correct. Employers are already paying for it through insurance plans, or contributions to insurance plans howsoever structured within each company.

And even if the '4' that they claim are removed, they will still be paying for it and I bet $100 that the premiums that the companies pay will not actually be reduced by one nickel over these four forms of birth control.

So this is an ethical/moral, not a financial argument - I get that. So stop bringing up the issue of 'companies do not want to pay for it - I will argue that paying for it is not relevant to the case. Your (their) religious objections to it are relevant to the case, and exactly why they will lose this one.

Your religious beliefs end where they impose on my rights. rights for birth control are not constitutional, but they are well established case law. This case, while divisive to the country, much like the pro-slavery arguments will die in favor of women having the right to control their reproductive systems.

[rushmc 18]

tkhayes

Quote

The ACA would have employers pay for a bit over 30 different kinds and types of birth control

That is not entirely factually correct. Employers are already paying for it through insurance plans, or contributions to insurance plans howsoever structured within each company.

And even if the '4' that they claim are removed, they will still be paying for it and I bet $100 that the premiums that the companies pay will not actually be reduced by one nickel over these four forms of birth control.

So this is an ethical/moral, not a financial argument - I get that. So stop bringing up the issue of 'companies do not want to pay for it - I will argue that paying for it is not relevant to the case. Your (their) religious objections to it are relevant to the case, and exactly why they will lose this one.

Your religious beliefs end where they impose on my rights. rights for birth control are not constitutional, but they are well established case law. This case, while divisive to the country, much like the pro-slavery arguments will die in favor of women having the right to control their reproductive systems.

You can turn this argument against yourself as well
Employees are forcing their beliefs on the comany here
So, there religious rights end where they attempt to impose their beliefs on the company owner

It is NOT like the slavery issue in any way

The women can still get any product or procedure they want
At any time
The issue is who is being FORCED to pay for it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln