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grue

Define your view on abortion?

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I'm absolutely pro-choice, as in it's the woman's choice, period. Don't like abortions? Don't have one.

That said, I really don't like abortion as birth-control... but previous attempts to curtail that tend to have the flow-on effect of restricting access for women who aren't doing it out of laziness, or whatever. Rather than restricting access further or setting "criteria" on who gets one and who doesn't, I'd much rather support improved sex-education and access to birth-control products. Make people aware of what they're doing, give them preventative measures, and unwanted pregnancies drop.

And while I stand by the her body her choice principle, I do agree with the other option you've given where the father should have the option of opting out. There's a fair bit of grey area there though with regards to how the pregnancy comes about, where there shouldn't necessarily be an automatic get-out-of-jail option... that would need some serious discussion to get worked out.

In the meantime, if you need me I'll be over here with my popcorn... :)

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

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I'm in a strange place on this one. I believe it should be a woman's choice as a last resort. There are other ways.

If I was 20 years younger I'll bet I wouldn't be here now. I was given up for adoption in 1958. Doubt that would have happened in 1978. So I have mixed feelings. I'd like to believe women try not to get pregnant and think hard about it before they have an abortion. The numbers don't bear that out.
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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If the woman has full choice to decide she does not want anything to do with child, including killing it, without the father having a choice. Then the sperm donor should be able to terminate the child as well, in the form of waiving his parental rights. there is so much talk about equal rights for this, equal rights for that, but then, talk about abortions and father rights, and men don't have any. where is our equality?
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mistercwood

I'm absolutely pro-choice, as in it's the woman's choice, period. Don't like abortions? Don't have one.

That said, I really don't like abortion as birth-control... ....

......



100% agree with your entire post.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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I am always confused about abortion in America.

If a fetus is not a human being, having not yet been born live, then why is one charged with double manslaughter or homicide should one kill or murder a pregnant female?

Can anyone explain the logic?

Just asking.
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That came about because pro-life activists (mostly) figured it would make abortion harder for exactly that reason. The old slippery slope

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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IMO, what a woman does with her own body is none of my business, none of the Pope's business (nor the business of any other religious entity), and none of any politician's business.

If she is a family member and seeks my advice I will give it. Whether or not she pays any attention to my advice is entirely her business.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I have always been amazed how some can rightly condemn the holocaust of the Jews in WWII and the genocide in other parts of the world, but then turn a blind eye to the mass slaughter of the unborn. If a fetus is not human life then what the hell is it, primordial goo?

...

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maadmax

I have always been amazed how some can rightly condemn the holocaust of the Jews in WWII and the genocide in other parts of the world, but then turn a blind eye to the mass slaughter of the unborn. If a fetus is not human life then what the hell is it, primordial goo?

...



Pretty much that is what it is... it is a possible life, and that is no guarantee...

Edjumicate thine self

What is a miscarriage?

Miscarriage is the loss of a pregnancy in the first 20 weeks. (In medical articles, you may see the term "spontaneous abortion" used in place of miscarriage.) About 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage, and more than 80 percent of these losses happen before 12 weeks.

This doesn't include situations in which you lose a fertilized egg before a pregnancy becomes established. Studies have found that 30 to 50 percent of fertilized eggs are lost before or during the process of implantation – often so early that a woman goes on to get her period at about the expected time.

What causes a miscarriage?

Between 50 and 70 percent of first-trimester miscarriages are thought to be random events caused by chromosomal abnormalities in the fertilized egg. Most often, this means that the egg or sperm had the wrong number of chromosomes, and as a result, the fertilized egg can't develop normally.

Sometimes a miscarriage is caused by problems that occur during the delicate process of early development. This would include an egg that doesn't implant properly in the uterus or an embryo with structural defects that prevent it from developing.

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Quote

The mother should be allowed to decide, but the father should be able to waive parental rights and financial responsibility if he wants abortion and she doesn't



1 - Pro-Life how it should be: An individual has the right to choose if they wish to not become a parent after the fact of a pregnancy happening. (for any reason). (Many politicize this position to female only as a means to unevenly empower women over men).

2 - It's a totally a different topic from the right to choose prior to a pregnancy happening when an individual wants to become a parent (provided they find an agreeable partner). (for any reason). (Pro-Lifers argue that this is how things "should" happen. But arguing against options for an accident based on 'shoulda-coulda' is a dick move and a bit of a tangent)

The quoted option is the only position that respects both genders that is compatible with a gender fair pro-choice alignment.

I don't have a solid view on the topic, personal choice would be to raise the baby and live by my accident - but I don't consider my personal choice strong enough to force onto others. But, since that is essentially pro-choice (and libertarian - respecting other people enough to let them make their own decisions), the the quoted option is the only one that seems to minimize the potential for gender bias (again, respect for every individual involved to have the same options and not let one take the other hostage in any way).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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wmw999

That came about because pro-life activists (mostly) figured it would make abortion harder for exactly that reason. The old slippery slope

Wendy P.



I think that is certainly an effect. I don't know of any reason to think it is the cause.

I think it only natural that many people who are enjoying a pregnancy and looking forward to the new addition to their family would consider the destruction of the fetus by a third party murder. I understand that even spontaneous abortion can cause great emotional trauma to an expecting couple similar to the loss of a child to injury, accident, etc. Moreover, the third party who commits this act would have to possess the requisite intent to kill that is required for murder charges.

So, the intent, act, and effect are the same as murder. The only difference is how you view the legal status of the fetus. While that is at the heart of the debate on abortion, it does not necessarily follow that the criminal code was a devious plan by pro-lifers.

To me, its just another difficult aspect of a difficult issue.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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And yet, many states/workplaces do not have the same bereavement policy for a miscarrage as for the death of a child, regarless of term. It's treated as a medical recovery issue, not as a mourning issue. Another legal point that places a fetus in a separate legal status as an infant.

WRT the law, the line must be drawn somewhere.

Personally, I agree with mistercwood as well. It would be nice if it wasn't needed, but if a woman feels it's needed, it should be safe and available.
See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

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The mother should be allowed to decide, but the father should be able to waive parental rights and financial responsibility if he wants abortion and she doesn't


Quote


The quoted option is the only position that respects both genders that is compatible with a gender fair pro-choice alignment.




Not in my opinion. One is the termination of a fetus, or a clump of cells that might turn into a fetus.

The other is a systematic ellimination of one parent from a born child, putting it at a disadvantage. Quite possibly tipping the mother in the direction of an abortion.

It could also be seen as a decision forced under duress. There can be a limited time frame to make the decision, with significant impact. I don't see how this scenario is workable at all.

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SkyDekker

Not in my opinion. One is the termination of a fetus, or a clump of cells that might turn into a fetus.

The other is a systematic ellimination of one parent from a born child, putting it at a disadvantage. Quite possibly tipping the mother in the direction of an abortion.

It could also be seen as a decision forced under duress. There can be a limited time frame to make the decision, with significant impact. I don't see how this scenario is workable at all.



in your opinion it's unpalatable - because the father "opting out" might force the mother into a very difficult situation raising the child

your solution - forcing the father into a very difficult situation raising the child he wouldn't want


nope - no gender bias there at all

if the mother gets to opt out, the father should get the same 'choice'

IMO - hijacking the father to provide and raise for a child he doesn't want is analogous to forcing the mother to carry to term a baby she doesn't want.

It's not a baby yet. I agree. but if it continues, the responsibilities that are being opted out on are raising a child. Both genders. the mental gymnastics to state it one way for the father and the other way for the mother are like going to watch Cirque. Each person makes their own choice and should not be subjugated by the other person in any involuntary way.


4 scenarios (mother wants/doesn't vs father wants/doesn't) - the mother gets the advantage in only one scenario - totally driven by biology (so there isn't a parallel fairness) - if she doesn't want the child and he does - her decision..... all the rest can be fair and equivalent.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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TriGirl

And yet, many states/workplaces do not have the same bereavement policy for a miscarrage as for the death of a child, regarless of term. It's treated as a medical recovery issue, not as a mourning issue. Another legal point that places a fetus in a separate legal status as an infant.

WRT the law, the line must be drawn somewhere.



The line IS clearly drawn. A fetus is not (a) eligible for a tax allowance (b) eligible for a SSN, (c) eligible for a passport or any other form of ID, (d) eligible to own property, have a bank account, have a library card, (e) allowed to collect dependent child survivor benefits from Social Security.

Simple really, it is NOT a person until delivered as a baby to our society.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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rehmwa

IMO - hijacking the father to provide and raise for a child he doesn't want is analogous to forcing the mother to carry to term a baby she doesn't want.



actually, that's not as good an analogy as one could make. Let's try another and see if there's a better discussion than the same o same o

Case 1 - couple hooks up and gets pregnant - both want the baby - no issues no conflict

Case 2 - couple hooks up and gets pregnant - both do NOT want the baby - no issues - abort away (ignore the moral implications)

Case 3 - couple hooks up and gets pregnant - she wants the baby, he doesn't. Her body, her choice, she keeps it....court forces the man to pay.

Let's stick with Case 3 for a bit and turn it around as best we can considering.........(the poll option doesn't really have the same result if he 'aborts the financial responsibility in Case 3. Because in case 4, if turned around, she aborts and he still isn't stuck with raising a child alone right?)


Case 4 - More aligned analogy - couple hooks up and gets pregnant -he wants the baby, she doesn't. Her body, her choice, she aborts it.... man also chooses unilaterally to adopt a baby.....court forces the woman to pay


much more equivalent -

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Abortion AND birth control ON DEMAND, with no apologies or regulation. If you have a penis, you don't get a vote.
Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
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maadmax

I have always been amazed how some can rightly condemn the holocaust of the Jews in WWII and the genocide in other parts of the world, but then turn a blind eye to the mass slaughter of the unborn. If a fetus is not human life then what the hell is it, primordial goo?



Something with the potential to be human after it matures to have more intelligence than non-human animals we eat for food.

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You could also look at it this way:

Case 1: demand responsible behavior from an adult who chose to engage in sex without taking adequate provision against pregnancy, despite claiming he doesn't want to be responsible for a child,

vs

Case 2: victimize a child who had absolutely no choice in the circumstances of their conception, likely condemning that child to an upbringing in poverty (considering that single parenthood is the single best predictor of poverty).

Don't want kids? Take responsibility for birth control yourself. Sure you don't want kids? Get snipped.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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