PA voter ID law thrown out by judge

[kelpdiver 2]

rehmwa

***We know that voter id problems are a solution to a problem, just not the one being presented. But it's hard for most GOP members to own up to the problem being 'too many illegalDemocratic voters.'

clarification needed - they are just mad because the Dems are getting a lot more of their illegal votes counted than the Reps illegal votes

When you dig into the communications, or occasionally hear from Party members who left in disgust, it's clear that 'illegal' has nothing to do with it. And we know how little concern they've shown for the false positives that come from these proposed changes, or the excessive purges of the voter rolls.

[kallend 1,621]

kelpdiver

******We know that voter id problems are a solution to a problem, just not the one being presented. But it's hard for most GOP members to own up to the problem being 'too many illegalDemocratic voters.'

clarification needed - they are just mad because the Dems are getting a lot more of their illegal votes counted than the Reps illegal votes

When you dig into the communications, or occasionally hear from Party members who left in disgust, it's clear that 'illegal' has nothing to do with it. And we know how little concern they've shown for the false positives that come from these proposed changes, or the excessive purges of the voter rolls.

Indeed, and the judge's reasoning in the verdict makes that pretty clear.

Nice summary here:

www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/01/the-uncertain-future-of-voter-id-laws/283171/

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gunpaq 1]

Quote

Seems to me, this opens the doors for all the illegals living in this country and are not citizens, the ability to vote.

The door and the gate has been wide open for almost twenty years.

Illegal aliens and non-citizens already have the right to vote in the US via the Motor Voter Regeistration Act, something that both the Democrats and Republicans have exploited to gain a voter base.

An illegal alien may document ones self at the DMV obtaining a state ID card (without threat of deportation........see current DHS protocols) and a non-citizen may apply for a drivers license at the DMV and both will be automatically registered to vote.

www.geronimoskydiving.com

[kallend 1,621]

gunpaq

An illegal alien may document ones self at the DMV obtaining a state ID card (without threat of deportation........see current DHS protocols) and a non-citizen may apply for a drivers license at the DMV and both will be automatically registered to vote.

Incorrect.

You're the guy in CANADA that was trying to tell us less than 2 weeks ago that your insurance was canceled by Obamacare.

You don't have a lot of credibility.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gunpaq 1]

Quote

Incorrect.

You're the guy in CANADA that was trying to tell us less than 2 weeks ago that your insurance was canceled by Obamacare.

You don't have a lot of credibility.

US citizen and vet who happens to live in Canada. Would I be more credible if I were living back home in Pennsylvania?

As far as the Obama Care: My old insurance policy coverage, premium, and deductables no longer exists in compliance with Obama Care.....so yes you got me as the original product was not cancelled just highly modified making it unaffordable and impractical to keep. So the plan that I had for more many years of coverage is gone for the sake of politics.

Check with your local DMV, DHS protocol, and with your County Seat human & family services for verification as far as the Motor Voter Registration System. We found this out through working with immigrants coming to our church shelter for assistance in Bradford County, Pennsylvania who were denied citizenship eligibility for registering to vote while getting a drivers license even though they did it unwittingly at the direction of the DMV clerk.

www.geronimoskydiving.com

[masterrig 1]

gunpaq

Quote

Seems to me, this opens the doors for all the illegals living in this country and are not citizens, the ability to vote.

The door and the gate has been wide open for almost twenty years.

Illegal aliens and non-citizens already have the right to vote in the US via the Motor Voter Regeistration Act, something that both the Democrats and Republicans have exploited to gain a voter base.

An illegal alien may document ones self at the DMV obtaining a state ID card (without threat of deportation........see current DHS protocols) and a non-citizen may apply for a drivers license at the DMV and both will be automatically registered to vote.

Thanks!


Chuck

[kallend 1,621]

masterrig

***

Quote

Seems to me, this opens the doors for all the illegals living in this country and are not citizens, the ability to vote.

The door and the gate has been wide open for almost twenty years.

Illegal aliens and non-citizens already have the right to vote in the US via the Motor Voter Regeistration Act, something that both the Democrats and Republicans have exploited to gain a voter base.

An illegal alien may document ones self at the DMV obtaining a state ID card (without threat of deportation........see current DHS protocols) and a non-citizen may apply for a drivers license at the DMV and both will be automatically registered to vote.

Thanks!


Chuck

It is INCORRECT. Voter registration is not automatic when you get a driver license.

Taking one state at random (the first that Googled on a driver license application search)

dmv.vermont.gov/sites/dmv/files/pdf/DMV-VL021-License_Learner_Permit_App.pdf

Check page 2 (documentation required) and page 3. The voter registration is additional, not automatic, and you have to confirm that you are a CITIZEN and have produced documents identifying yourself as a citizen or alien.

The National Voter Registration Act (NVRA) (aka "motor voter act") only requires that states provide the OPPORTUNITY to register to vote. It does not mandate automatic registration.

Directly from the US Dept. of Justice: In addition to whatever other methods of voter registration which States offer, the Act requires states to provide the opportunity to apply to register to vote for federal elections by three means: Section 5 of the Act requires states to provide individuals with the opportunity to register to vote at the same time that they apply for a driver's license or seek to renew a driver's license, and requires the State to forward the completed application to the appropriate state of local election official.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Southern_Man 0]

gunpaq

Check with your local DMV, DHS protocol, and with your County Seat human & family services for verification as far as the Motor Voter Registration System. We found this out through working with immigrants coming to our church shelter for assistance in Bradford County, Pennsylvania who were denied citizenship eligibility for registering to vote while getting a drivers license even though they did it unwittingly at the direction of the DMV clerk.

In my state you have to provide proof of legal presence to get a driver's license. Not all states are the same rules, though.

In my state the application to vote is exactly the same regardless of where you get it. Motor-voter law just makes it that the DMV has those applications on site. You must supply a social security number when registering to vote. There is no higher ability to register illegally at the DMV or at the local registrar (or by mail, which is also valid).

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[kallend 1,621]

Here is the application for a Pennsylvania ID (the state this thread relates to):

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/dl_forms/dl-54a.pdf

Note that to get it you HAVE to show proof of citizenship or legal alien status, and then having done that, to register to vote you HAVE to affirm that you are a citizen. Voter registration is NOT AUTOMATIC.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[masterrig 1]

kallend

Here is the application for a Pennsylvania ID (the state this thread relates to):

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/dl_forms/dl-54a.pdf

Note that to get it you HAVE to show proof of citizenship or legal alien status, and then having done that, to register to vote you HAVE to affirm that you are a citizen. Voter registration is NOT AUTOMATIC.

That was gunpaq who said that about DL's and voter registration. All I said was 'thanks'.


Chuck

[Boomerdog 0]

dumb@$$ed judge!

[gunpaq 1]

Here is the application for a Pennsylvania ID (the state this thread relates to):

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/dl_forms/dl-54a.pdf

Quote

Note that to get it you HAVE to show proof of citizenship or legal alien status, and then having done that, to register to vote you HAVE to affirm that you are a citizen. Voter registration is NOT AUTOMATIC.

The pdf document PA ID Application also provides for "other" means of identification. We have helped many immigrants fill these out in our office and have gone to the DMV with them. "Other" means that I have seen accepted at PA DMV's for ID have been medical records, utility bills, foreign ID's, and notarized letters.

As a former 50 year resident of PA working in social services and the ministry I have had some first hand experiences with voter registration and I am not pulling statements out of the air.

My wife was an immigrant to the US and had experienced the whole DMV Motor Voter Registration process as well. She refused to register even at the insistence of the clerk when she obtained her PA drivers license. The DMV followed up with a phone call for her to reconsider and register via phone and with a letter which followed. We were fortunate enough to afford an attorney to handle all our immigration issues but tens of thousands are not and get caught in a cruel trap at the DMV.

The problem is that the laws on the books are not uniformly being carried out or enforced by those government representatives in the field. In this case namely the DMV, re; Motor Voter Act. In PA there seems to be a pattern relating to urban vs rural and political districts.

Of the five immigrant families in Pennsylvania we have assisted personally in the ministry one family member was without status (to be politically incorrect she was an illegal alien) but did not register to vote, the other three had status and were registered to vote when they applied for a PA drivers license. The DMV offices this occurred at were in Scranton, Reading, and Pottstown, PA.

In PA DMV's, depending upon the county, the applicant for a state ID or drivers license is verbally asked by clerk if he or she wishes to register to vote and the clerk records their answer or the applicant pushes a yes or no button on a computer touch screen. There is no signing of documents in the PA DMV for registering to vote. It is up to the DMV clerk to be vigilant and not politically motivated as well as the applicant to be honest.

In the case of immigrants with a poor command of the English language and with a fear of authority a good many folks unwittingly register to vote. For many it is the most cruelest thing the government can do by knowingly making them ineligible for citizenship by encouraging them to register or automatically registering them without them understanding the process and the laws. The gentleman who had his citizenship application denied for registering to vote was not informed until his last interview in Pittsburgh after a seven year process in which he never voted. His case is under appeal with the help of Catholic Charities.

You are right that voter registration is not automatic because a Voter ID card is not issued automatically when one applies for an ID or license through the DMV. But for many immigrants without their informed consent ( a clear understanding of language and process) their registration is automatic when they visit the DMV for ID's and licenses.

www.geronimoskydiving.com

[Andy9o8 0]

Neither you nor anyone else here has answered the point I made in post #25 - that it's utter folly to think that 99.9999% of illegal immigrants would possibly be inclined to vote. It's a solution in search of a problem, for no other reason - do you know what NO OTHER REASON means? - no other reason than Republicans trying to suppress Democratic votes of actual US citizens. Anyone who genuinely believes otherwise is simply a gullible fool.

[regulator 0]

Republicans trying to suppress Democratic votes of actual US citizens


IF the voters you are referring to are US citizens then they should have no problem proving they are as such and showing a drivers license or ID card just like in banks, for passports or any other identification purposes.

[gunpaq 1]

Quote

Neither you nor anyone else here has answered the point I made in post #25 - that it's utter folly to think that 99.9999% of illegal immigrants would possibly be inclined to vote. It's a solution in search of a problem, for no other reason - do you know what NO OTHER REASON means? - no other reason than Republicans trying to suppress Democratic votes of actual US citizens. Anyone who genuinely believes otherwise is simply a gullible fool.

Personally I feel that one should be required to identify ones self when voting as it only makes sense to keep an accurate account of votes and that is not a position on race, immigration status, or political party affiliation. For the most part persons in and out of immigration status do not vote but both the Republicans and Democrats use them as political fodder and try to exploit votes from them and by using them . I want to be certain that my one vote as a citizen and all citizens are valid and are counted and a proper and accurate record of voter registration/ID is a logical way to assure that. The political debate with Republican vs Democrat using race and immigration status as a rally cry on Voter ID is just a political parlor trick to get citizens arguing amongst themselves while the politicans garb more power and tax payer money.

www.geronimoskydiving.com

[kallend 1,621]

gunpaq

You are right that voter registration is not automatic because a Voter ID card is not issued automatically when one applies for an ID or license through the DMV.

Yes, I was right.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gunpaq 1]

Quote

gunpaq wrote:
.

You are right that voter registration is not automatic because a Voter ID card is not issued automatically when one applies for an ID or license through the DMV.

Yes, I was right.

Touché on the fine points of the debate.

www.geronimoskydiving.com

[Andy9o8 0]

regulator

Republicans trying to suppress Democratic votes of actual US citizens


IF the voters you are referring to are US citizens then they should have no problem proving they are as such and showing a drivers license or ID card just like in banks, for passports or any other identification purposes.

Yes, yes; there's a good robot.

[Kennedy 0]

Why is voting different from every other interaction with government? Why do I need to prove my identify for everything else except voting?

Hmm, voting is a right.... you know, I can think of a number of other constitutional/civil rights that I cannot exercise without an ID and often paperwork or payments.

Why is getting an ID considered a burden for voting but nowhere else?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Andy9o8 0]

As said above a few times now, there was no genuine problem to be solved. It was a political ploy, solely a political ploy, with genuine consequences to the electorate. The reason, even if supportable in logic is but an after-the-fact rationalization. That's essentially the reason why some judges, such as the Federal judge in PA, see fit to overturn such laws: because the judges are willing to cut through the bullshit.

Likely this ruling will be appealed, at least partly based on the argument you state. By all means, seek leave to submit a friend-of-the-court brief to the appellate court.

[Kennedy 0]

Don't get me wrong, I'm right there with you on the "literacy test" nonsense. (For the republicans in the room, how many of you speak Greek?) Disenfranchisement is not my bag, baby.

I just can't understand why anyone acts like getting an ID is so damned difficult. When it comes to cutting the told or blocking voter access, wrong is as wrong does. But why the opposition to ID requirement?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kelpdiver 2]

Kennedy

I just can't understand why anyone acts like getting an ID is so damned difficult. When it comes to cutting the told or blocking voter access, wrong is as wrong does. But why the opposition to ID requirement?

Aside from the flashblack to Communist Russia, it's not really that hard, and maybe it's ok to demand people do a little work to vote. But the end result is fewer voters, which is hard to support, particularly when our voter participation is so low to start with.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

I just can't understand why anyone acts like getting an ID is so damned difficult.

Because, for some, it really is. In part, it's because many poorer people living in inner-urban areas who don't drive and rely on public transportation are part of an economic sub-group who often don't have any need for a government-issued photo ID. Oftentimes, by the time they're adults, the raised-stamp birth certificate that had been given to their mother when they were born has long since been lost; and frequently they don't have, for example, utility bills in their own names. So first (to get a govt photo ID) they have to jump through hoops to get the "acceptable" documents to support their identification and place of residence. Next, they have to take the time to take public transportation well out of their neighborhood down to (usually) a DMV or similar office. So even if the govt photo IDs are offered for free, the hassles to get one are sufficient to make a lot of folks in this sub-group to say the hell with it and not bother. The end result is their effective disenfranchisement. And, not coincidentally, most of this sub-group historically tends to trend Democratic.

The Republicans know all this; this is the REAL reason why they're doing it, and the REAL effect of having such laws in place IN THIS CONTEXT. The rationalization for it is quite logical - as you've reasonably pointed out - but in truth it's simply a facade. (In Legalese, it's often referred-to as a "pretext".) Well, this judge is saying, "I know it, too, and I'm not letting you get away with it."

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Andy9o8

Quote

I just can't understand why anyone acts like getting an ID is so damned difficult.

Because, for some, it really is...

Here's a recent, real world example for you.

My mom is a 76 year old widow. She drives and has a car, but doesn't go far. She's not poor.

Recently, her driver's license came up for renewal. The DMV gave her the option of getting a standard license, or the enhanced "Real ID" that meets all the new federal standards.

She ended up not getting the "Real ID" because she didn't have proof of her name change. She had all the other proof she needed, but would have needed a certified copy of her marriage certificate to prove her name change.

She was married to my dad in 1959 in Ohio. She would have had to get hold of the Clerk of Courts there, request a copy, jump through whatever hoops they threw at her and pay whatever fees would be required.

I offered to do the research and see what would be involved, but she decided it wasn't worth the trouble and that she didn't think she would need the "Real ID."

She does have her DL, and it's a valid ID for what she needs. But if and when the standards increase, she won't have it.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rushmc 18]

wolfriverjoe

***

Quote

I just can't understand why anyone acts like getting an ID is so damned difficult.

Because, for some, it really is...

Here's a recent, real world example for you.

My mom is a 76 year old widow. She drives and has a car, but doesn't go far. She's not poor.

Recently, her driver's license came up for renewal. The DMV gave her the option of getting a standard license, or the enhanced "Real ID" that meets all the new federal standards.

She ended up not getting the "Real ID" because she didn't have proof of her name change. She had all the other proof she needed, but would have needed a certified copy of her marriage certificate to prove her name change.

She was married to my dad in 1959 in Ohio. She would have had to get hold of the Clerk of Courts there, request a copy, jump through whatever hoops they threw at her and pay whatever fees would be required.

I offered to do the research and see what would be involved, but she decided it wasn't worth the trouble and that she didn't think she would need the "Real ID."

She does have her DL, and it's a valid ID for what she needs. But if and when the standards increase, she won't have it.

You do know that these enhanced ID are a brain child of the feg gov, do you not?

Iowa is going to them too
States choice

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln