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Jumpdude

"Christians"?

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>People who are gay, and that way BY CHOICE! They CHOOSE to be that way!

So you are attracted to men just as strongly as you are attracted to women - and just chose to only have sex with women? You'd enjoy either one, but you just made a decision one day?

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Thunderbow


Asking that a union between two people of the same sex not be called marriage is not judging them. I know and respect people with those inclinations. I just happen to believe that marriage is an institution made by God so that we can continue to have children and raise them to love and honor Him.



The Church had diddly-squat to do with marriages up until about 400-500 years ago. The concept of "Marriage" being an exclusively Christian ritual is an exceptionally recent one when viewed against the history of the religion as a whole. Not having a dig at you specifically, I just get a little frustrated when a very old ritual/institution gets hijacked by one group as exclusively theirs...
You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

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Channman

If you enjoy pissing in the wind, then have at it.[:/]



The philosopher Croce advised against this.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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Thunderbow

Asking that a union between two people of the same sex not be called marriage is not judging them. I know and respect people with those inclinations. I just happen to believe that marriage is an institution made by God so that we can continue to have children and raise them to love and honor Him.



I'm having a bit of an issue here. I noticed you had an early response that someone isn't much of a Christian if they.... Clearly you meant they don't meet YOUR definition of Christian. But if they claim to be Christian, whose definition prevails? Catholics have burned people for being Protestant with the church's blessing. Protestants have burned people for being witches with the church's blessing. Who defines what is 'Christian'? Feel free to define the term for yourself, but do you have the authority to define Christianity for everyone else?

Here, you claim to define marriage as specifically belonging to God. I would be fine with that argument, except that several Protestant denominations recognize gay marriage, perform ceremonies for gay couples, ordain gay ministers, etc. So, who defines when God blesses the union and it becomes 'marriage'. I'm starting to think it is only you and those who agree with you.

You do realize that you are not married in the eyes of the Catholic church unless you are a card carrying Catholic and married by the Catholic church to another card carrying Catholic, right? By that definition, very few of us can claim to be married. And the Catholic church has a claim to the term Christian that pre-dates existing denominations by centuries.

So, where do we go from here? Can you only claim to be married under Catholic rules, if any Christian denomination calls you married, if any religious organization calls you married, if Thunderbow says so, or if God issues a certificate?
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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You do realize that you are not married in the eyes of the Catholic church unless you are a card carrying Catholic and married by the Catholic church to another card carrying Catholic, right? By that definition, very few of us can claim to be married. And the Catholic church has a claim to the term Christian that pre-dates existing denominations by centuries.



Nope. In this case you have this particular point wrong on the specifics of the Roman Catholic Canon and what IT REALLY says.

I married a Catholic in a Protestant Church which at the time was a church we both attended. My wife did not secure the approval of the Bishop of the local diocese to marry outside the Catholic Church. Our marrige, however, was recognized by the Church. In fact, the Catholic Church recognizes many marriages performed by other Christian denominations.

A few years ago, I made the decision to become a Catholic. Right after the Mass where I was accepted into the Church, my wife and I had our second wedding, performed by a Catholic priest. Why? Because I was now a Catholic and for the Church to recognize the marital union of two Catholics, we were obligated to marrry in the Catholic Church according to the canons of the Catholic Church. Quite frankly, I did not see it as an obligation, I was all too happy to re-marry my lovely wife in the Catholic Church.

On the issue of history, you are right. The historical record is clear that the Roman Catholic Church did organize as the first Christian body...some time after the first Easter. I will stop here on this point as I am NOT going to get into a raucaous debate about the Catholic Church being the true church. I'm not going there.

Almost two thousand years of church teaching, continuous analysis, some ocassional debate etc still leaves the Church in the position and belief that marriage is a sacrament between a man and a woman and the reasons for this position is for anyone here to inquire if they so wish...the Church is honest and up front with extensive reasoning in its position on marriage. Many here may not agree with it, but that's each individual's choice. It is a sacrament taken very seriously and Rome is not going to change its position.

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Thank you for the clarification and please don't think I meant any insult. I have great respect for the Catholic church.

I do not, however, recognize that any religious group has a lock on the term or concept of marriage. Obviously, it can be defined different ways.

To pretend that someone else cannot call themselves 'married' because they do not meet your definition is as silly as saying they are not Christian because they don't meet your definition.

Again, no intent to denegrate Christianity, Catholicism, or any other religion. They were just illustrations.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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Well my friend, you ask some valid questions. If I may, I'll muddy the water a little more as I've already responded to someone else here on the issue of marriage and the Catholic Church. And as a former Protestant who is now Catholic, there are some Protestant denominations that declare I myself will be in an eternal journey for a shady spot with the most committed atheists in the fires of Hell. Nothing against Protestants mind you and I absolutely refuse to argue the converse. Contrary to popular belief, Catholics don't believe that Protestants share the same "fate." Quite the contrary.

Your not the only one who has observed such behavior with people who profess themselves to be Christian. I too have seen it and there are times in my life I've either comitted these offenses myself or enabled such behavior and for that I am sorry and must change my ways.

While Christianity contains many sound principles to live by (and so many of us don't consistently live by them); that's NOT what Christianity is. Christianity is the belief in a person and the actions of that person and more importantly WHO that person said he was. It is the belief that God became man in Jesus Christ and that God dwelt among his creation as a human and ulitmately paid the horrible price for the sins of all of us past present and future. Many don't accept this but that is their choice. Christians believe that God loves us so much that He has given us the freedom to make that choice.

Too many times people pour their "righteous" indignation into the wrong things at the wrong time and they end up getting it wrong altogether. I think a valid criticism of all the denominations within Christianity is that it does not make a sound and reasoned defense of its teachings on the "hot button " issues presenting positive postions on why some things should be avoided. "Thou shalt not"...and then being hypocritical about it is not a good message to the rest of the world.

And of course, let's not forget that place called Hell as I am sure many here (myself included) have gotten the finger wag on that one by some well meaning individual. Hell is mentioned 44 times in the New Testament so it must have gotten into someone's head in the annals of antiquity. But if faith is just a "fire insurance policy," to an individual, then perhaps they too are still on shaky ground. I think if we looked at faith not as that fire insurance policy, even less of a theory, and put our priorities as a love affair with God (as God wishes the same with us), then we have a good starting point to begin that divine walk.

On the issue of drinking/alcohol...what God made He made good. It's just us humans who get it wrong by taking it to excess or to quote GK Chesterton, "Drink because you are happy, but never because you are miserable." AND I enjoy a beer or two once the green light is on after a great day of skydiving. My skydiving wife does not like beer...she drives home!

One more Chesterton quote if I may. "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."

So...my 25 cents and a cup of coffee's worth.
Good luck!

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Thanks for your reply. Coming from your perspective I am sure you said it much better than I would have. It is a very good explanation of the Catholic Church's position. The Church has received much from converts like you.

davjohns - I appreciate the noting of your respect for the Catholic Church. I understand that we won't ever all agree but respect for each other is important. I don't usually get into these discussions because I have a hard time putting things in words. I also appreciate that this thread hasn't totally degenerated into mud slinging as most religious discussions seem to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

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kelpdiver

It's less the 'judging' and more the followup with legislation to enforce said judgement that rubs people the wrong way.



Kelpy nails it right here. And this is by NO MEANS just a Christian thing. Frankly, I don't like anyone so self righteous that they use the government to force certain types of subjective decisions on me. Even something as innocuous as what kind of light bulb I wish to purchase - to how much charity I'm supposed to funnel through government instead of privately - to whether my partner and I were to decide to have a baby or not. Leave us alone - I can make my own choices thank you.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Jumpdude

First, I want to say that I am in NO WAY anti-religious, I do think that religion, regardless of what version, is or can be a good thing, so don't read half way into it and think I'm Athiest or whatever, but this may explain why it makes it really difficult for me to associate with some people (Not all) who call themselves "Christians"!

So what makes person "A" better than person "B" because person "A" is a "So called" "Christian"?
Does being a Christian give people the mentality that they are better than others?

No, just the opposite.

Why do "Christians" seem to try to find dirt on someone else?

For the same reasons that the others try to find dirt on Christians i.e., anger and revenge. In other words, they lack faith and understanding The Word of God.

Why is that "Christians" seem to live in fear of "what if"?

Generally, it is not fear but rather attempts to warn others.

Why is it that "Christians" try to belittle others, in an effort to make the other person in to a bad person without even knowing them?

People living in unrepentant sin tend to hear truth as belittlement.

Does being a "Christian" mean that you have to be a prude?

No

Does being a "Christian" mean that you have to put others down or classify them as not good to associate with?

No, generally we seek out sinners. They are the most interesting to associate with. At least true for me, that is why I am in SC.

Does being a "Christian" give them the right to tell someone that they are going to Hell if they don't become a so called "Christian"?

No, it gives us the right to warn others that they will go to "hell" if they do not accept God's plan for salvation through Jesus Christ. As the old saying goes, "What do you have to do to be eternally lost? Absolutely nothing." Salvation is an individual choice. Those of us who are Born Again are living good lives and we want to share it.

Does being a "Christian" make it ok for them to not visit a family in time of sickness or death because the sick or deceased is/was not a "Christian", but smother the one's who is/were a "Christian"?

On the contrary, many Christians go to hospitals to comfort the lost and dying with the good news of Christ. Have you not heard of death bed salvation?

Why is it that some, maybe most "Christians" look down on, or even refuse to do business with an establishment that sells/serves alcohol?

I am not aware of such a practice. I suppose it happens in isolated cases but, it is not wide spread through out the body of Christ. Another old saying, "Wherever three or four Presbyterians are gathered together there's bound to be a fifth somewhere."

Why is it that "Most Christians" I've ever known, have a tendacy to judge people (and it's almost never good)?

I think that is a negative character defect of most people. It is not Christians only.

Why is it that some "Christians" vote for a political candidate merely because the candidate was a "Christian" regardless if the candidate can actually do a good job or not?

That is a sad but true testimony in many instances. In today's political climate there is very little truth in campaigning. Why do the low information voters base their decisions on the last ad they hear before entering the polling booth.?

I could go on and on, but I don't have time to write the whole book, nor does most have time to read it, but the point is, if you take all these questions/facts that I've listed, would you actually want to be a "Christian", or roll them all up in to one person, be like that person, or even associate with someone like that??



Bottom line, your description of the Christian is biased, prejudiced and not correct. I believe quade had the first and best respose.

I've been busy and it took me a long time to get here.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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RonD1120



Bottom line, your description of the Christian is biased, prejudiced and not correct. I believe quade had the first and best response.

I've been busy and it took me a long time to get here.



Not really biased, I was raised Church of Christ, and because of my parent's hardcore methods of ramming it down mine and my sister's throats, neither me or my sisters have hardly anything to do with the church now, not from resentment, just no interest in being like those kind of people. I have been exposed to people over the years that display the characteristics that I posted, and having known Christians of different religions, almost all of them in/from Tennessee, they all seem like miserable people, and they always have seem to something negative to say about someone, or try to place judgement on someone.
You said that the lost ones are the ones that you are most interested in associating with, I 100% respect that answer, and that's what I would think that someone should to if they want to convey their message, but here in Tn, the attitude that is often prevalent is that those are bad people who will only bring you down! Don't associate with them! Hence a big part of me posting this thread in the first place!
I recently introduced my GF to the family over the Christmas holidays, and my kids and sisters love her, but the parents had a very different attitude, the first question they asked her was not something like "Where are you from?" or "how long have y'all been dating", or even, "has he taken you skydiving yet?", Their first question was "What church do you go to?" I spoke up and answered for her, and said she don't go to any church, and from there, the whole subject has gone to crap from there. The most recent communication between me and the parents was how she's going to drag me down to hell with her, and I reminded them that I haven't been to church in almost 10 years, and that by them relentlessly ramming it down our throats only pushes us further away,,, well, the conversation declined from there til I finally just hung up the phone after telling them that when they can quit being religious zealots and open up a bit, just forget my phone number!
Again, as I said up front, I'm not anti-religious, nor do I hate it, I do believe and I do not hate God, so don't anyone go off the deep end by thinking I'm an Atheist, Agnostic or Pagan, I'm not that at all, just stating that the way that some people approach it or act about it is totally unacceptable.

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The Christian faith is not a "PROJECT" it's a "PROCESS"

You made a very interesting point..."but here in Tn, the attitude that is often prevalent is that those are bad people who will only bring you down! Don't associate with them!"

Jesus did just that...he spent his time with the BAD people, the broken, mistreated, widowed, thief, tax collectors....fishermen the poorest of the poor. "Christian"...Christ Like, it is simply here that most of us get it wrong, we hang our hats on Religion, which Christ stood against. Jesus came not for the Religious, but for those who would have a relationship with him.

The Samaritan woman at the well John 4:4-42. In this story it is revealed that the Samaritan woman has had 5 husbands, and the man she is with now is not her husband. At no time did he condemn her to Hell Fire, what he does is not what we do, he speaks with her in truth and with love.

As a Christ follower myself...I realized OH not that long ago, I'm the CHIEF of ALL SINNERS. But it's not a P90X project where I'm going to get it right in the next 90 days, its a life long process. Yep, I'm a Cheese eating Weasel Rat some times, but hanging out with the broken is OK with me because it is what Christ modeled on how we are to interact with those we wish to share our faith.

Cheers to ya...got to go, the winds are down and time to launch my PPG.

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Jumpdude

***

Bottom line, your description of the Christian is biased, prejudiced and not correct. I believe quade had the first and best response.

I've been busy and it took me a long time to get here.



Not really biased, I was raised Church of Christ, and because of my parent's hardcore methods of ramming it down mine and my sister's throats, neither me or my sisters have hardly anything to do with the church now, not from resentment, just no interest in being like those kind of people. I have been exposed to people over the years that display the characteristics that I posted, and having known Christians of different religions, almost all of them in/from Tennessee, they all seem like miserable people, and they always have seem to something negative to say about someone, or try to place judgement on someone.
You said that the lost ones are the ones that you are most interested in associating with, I 100% respect that answer, and that's what I would think that someone should to if they want to convey their message, but here in Tn, the attitude that is often prevalent is that those are bad people who will only bring you down! Don't associate with them! Hence a big part of me posting this thread in the first place!
I recently introduced my GF to the family over the Christmas holidays, and my kids and sisters love her, but the parents had a very different attitude, the first question they asked her was not something like "Where are you from?" or "how long have y'all been dating", or even, "has he taken you skydiving yet?", Their first question was "What church do you go to?" I spoke up and answered for her, and said she don't go to any church, and from there, the whole subject has gone to crap from there. The most recent communication between me and the parents was how she's going to drag me down to hell with her, and I reminded them that I haven't been to church in almost 10 years, and that by them relentlessly ramming it down our throats only pushes us further away,,, well, the conversation declined from there til I finally just hung up the phone after telling them that when they can quit being religious zealots and open up a bit, just forget my phone number!
Again, as I said up front, I'm not anti-religious, nor do I hate it, I do believe and I do not hate God, so don't anyone go off the deep end by thinking I'm an Atheist, Agnostic or Pagan, I'm not that at all, just stating that the way that some people approach it or act about it is totally unacceptable.

Your response makes good sense. I understand your position. Let me be clear about the terms biased and prejudiced. Everyone with an opinion is biased a prejudiced. It means your life experience has guided you to a prejudgment at your current juncture.

My experience with the Church of Christ is limited, biased and prejudiced. They are what we refer to as legalistic church. They are a very legalistic church. And, I agree with you in that they are difficult to hang with.

Over the past 30+ years I have worked with many denominations and independent community churches. Right now we are members of the Church of God, Cleveland TN. They have some legalistic points but we overlook them. The people in our particular congregation are very loving, supportive and community oriented.

Look around for a church with folks you like, a pastor that makes sense and preaches from Scripture. I suggest starting with the non-denominational independent churches. Frequently, they meet in the small strip malls in the community.

The purpose of being a Christian is to have an eternal relationship with Jesus Christ not belonging to a "church."
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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Channman

The Christian faith is not a "PROJECT" it's a "PROCESS"

You made a very interesting point..."but here in Tn, the attitude that is often prevalent is that those are bad people who will only bring you down! Don't associate with them!"

Jesus did just that...he spent his time with the BAD people, the broken, mistreated, widowed, thief, tax collectors....fishermen the poorest of the poor. "Christian"...Christ Like, it is simply here that most of us get it wrong, we hang our hats on Religion, which Christ stood against. Jesus came not for the Religious, but for those who would have a relationship with him.

The Samaritan woman at the well John 4:4-42. In this story it is revealed that the Samaritan woman has had 5 husbands, and the man she is with now is not her husband. At no time did he condemn her to Hell Fire, what he does is not what we do, he speaks with her in truth and with love.

As a Christ follower myself...I realized OH not that long ago, I'm the CHIEF of ALL SINNERS. But it's not a P90X project where I'm going to get it right in the next 90 days, its a life long process. Yep, I'm a Cheese eating Weasel Rat some times, but hanging out with the broken is OK with me because it is what Christ modeled on how we are to interact with those we wish to share our faith.

Cheers to ya...got to go, the winds are down and time to launch my PPG.



Amen brother, well stated.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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alabamaskydiver


The "Gay Rights" thing is something of a tough subject! I may be, and probably am biased on that since I'm retired military, and was conditioned to have no tolerance for gays, but since society seems to be accepting it these days, I will make a point and try to be politically correct;
People who are gay, and that way BY CHOICE! They CHOOSE to be that way! So the whole gay rights thing is, IMHO BULLSHIT! Our constitution gives us rights and freedoms, and maybe sexual pref is one of them, but I do feel that it's a big difference between gays and the race or nationality. ALL People were born as one nationality or another, or one race or the other, so THAT'S where the RIGHTS come in to play! NONE of us asked to be born with a certain skin color or nationality, so why should someone who makes a choice to be gay be awarded a right to be that way, especially when it's clearly defined as a sin in the Bible, (or at least in any version that I've ever seen)? Someone correct me if I am wrong.



Well, first off, being gay isn't a CHOICE. There's a lot of uncertainty about it's causes, but it's pretty clear that it isn't a choice. As was asked, when did you say "I like guys, and I like girls. I'll choose girls."

Second, you weren't born with guns, do you have rights to have them? You weren't born with a house, do you have a right to privacy in that (free from unreasonable searches?)
I can list a lot of rights that are attached to choices.

Third, where do you have the right to force YOUR religious CHOICE on everyone else? Your bible may call homosexuality a sin, but that's your belief. How can you feel that you can require everyone else to believe the same thing (remember those guys, the Pilgrims?).

Last, why do you get to pick and choose which sins should be condemned and which should be ignored?
Sure, homosexuality is listed as a sin in the bible, but so are a LOT of other things that are completely acceptable today. Why aren't you railing against those?
The one that comes to the front of my mind is the one about "Keeping the Sabbath Holy." It isn't just mentioned in Leviticus or somewhere, it's one of those "Commandment" things that the big guy gave to Moses, on stone.
I seem to recall reading about a servant being stoned (as in killed by rocks, not smoking something) for gathering firewood on the Sabbath.
These days, it seems like everyone in the "Bible Belt" is either at the mall or watching fast cars on Sundays.
Why isn't anyone calling for NASCAR to stop their sinful ways?
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wolfriverjoe

***
The "Gay Rights" thing is something of a tough subject! I may be, and probably am biased on that since I'm retired military, and was conditioned to have no tolerance for gays, but since society seems to be accepting it these days, I will make a point and try to be politically correct;
People who are gay, and that way BY CHOICE! They CHOOSE to be that way! So the whole gay rights thing is, IMHO BULLSHIT! Our constitution gives us rights and freedoms, and maybe sexual pref is one of them, but I do feel that it's a big difference between gays and the race or nationality. ALL People were born as one nationality or another, or one race or the other, so THAT'S where the RIGHTS come in to play! NONE of us asked to be born with a certain skin color or nationality, so why should someone who makes a choice to be gay be awarded a right to be that way, especially when it's clearly defined as a sin in the Bible, (or at least in any version that I've ever seen)? Someone correct me if I am wrong.



Well, first off, being gay isn't a CHOICE. There's a lot of uncertainty about it's causes, but it's pretty clear that it isn't a choice. As was asked, when did you say "I like guys, and I like girls. I'll choose girls."

Second, you weren't born with guns, do you have rights to have them? You weren't born with a house, do you have a right to privacy in that (free from unreasonable searches?)
I can list a lot of rights that are attached to choices.

Third, where do you have the right to force YOUR religious CHOICE on everyone else? Your bible may call homosexuality a sin, but that's your belief. How can you feel that you can require everyone else to believe the same thing (remember those guys, the Pilgrims?).

Last, why do you get to pick and choose which sins should be condemned and which should be ignored?
Sure, homosexuality is listed as a sin in the bible, but so are a LOT of other things that are completely acceptable today. Why aren't you railing against those?
The one that comes to the front of my mind is the one about "Keeping the Sabbath Holy." It isn't just mentioned in Leviticus or somewhere, it's one of those "Commandment" things that the big guy gave to Moses, on stone.
I seem to recall reading about a servant being stoned (as in killed by rocks, not smoking something) for gathering firewood on the Sabbath.
These days, it seems like everyone in the "Bible Belt" is either at the mall or watching fast cars on Sundays.
Why isn't anyone calling for NASCAR to stop their sinful ways?
Well, the Nascar thing sure was random!! So You're saying they can't race on Sundays, but football, basketball, hockey or any other event is ok? Just seems odd that you would single out Nascar without listing others to accommodate.
Anyway, I seemed to have struck a nerve on the gay thing! I will admit that I don't know as much about what's in the Bible about that subject as some, but I do know that it's considered to be a sin, so if the good lord considers it a sin, it must be a choice. IF it's a genetic thing, or a sickness, how could it possibly be considered to be a sin?
It is the same as someone who smokes, or drinks! NOT picking on either, just making a point. People who smoke or drink, do that because they choose to do so, it's not genetic, or hereditary! It's a choice! Same goes for gays, they choose to go against nature, and bed down with their own sex! We all know that the male and female body was designed to fit together for appropriation, so how can it be said that it's not a choice? I've heard that song and dance before that it's genetic, or whatever you want to call it, but it's still a choice to go there if one so chooses to do so! It's just like nuts and bolts, or pipes, you HAVE to have a male AND a female thread or fitting for it to work CORRECTLY! You don't plug the male end of a cord in to the male end of another cord. It don't work very well, does it?

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I don't know as much about what's in the Bible about that subject as some, but I do know that it's considered to be a sin, so if the good lord considers it a sin, it must be a choice.
IF it's a genetic thing, or a sickness, how could it possibly be considered to be a sin?



You must be a troll, right? That's the only possible reason I can think of that anyone would say something like that...

I can think of an equally valid reason why it isn't a choice. There is no God, and sins are man made concepts.

You know what else that 'Good Lord' considered bad? Sleeping in the same bed as women when they're menstruating. Yet I don't see you trying to enforce that? Why not? Is it another case of pick and choose which of Gods words to follow?

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It is the same as someone who smokes, or drinks! NOT picking on either, just making a point. People who smoke or drink, do that because they choose to do so, it's not genetic, or hereditary! It's a choice! Same goes for gays, they choose to go against nature, and bed down with their own sex! We all know that the male and female body was designed to fit together for appropriation, so how can it be said that it's not a choice?



It's nothing like someone who smokes or drinks. The lack of basic logic in your arguments just keeps pointing towards blatant trolling, as I can't believe anyone would seriously write this type of stuff? It's like a Fox News spoof or something.

You know what a choice is right? It's when you have two options and you pick to go with one of them. When in your life has your sexual preferences ever been a choice?

At what stage in your life did you go "Well, I think I will find girls attractive". When did you ever say "Well, hmmm I think I'll choose to find blondes attractive".

Go read some science journals and you'll see that attraction is by large defined by factors outside of our control. (Or is science evil and reading research means that you're not trusting the almighty Lord?!)

And even if, EVEN IF I were to say "Sure, it's a choice and therefore gays need to change". Then why is it that you still sin? Why do you make that choice? If you believe in a God that wants you not to sin, why is it that you're focusing more on what other people's sexual orientation is, when you're unable to control your own choices to commit sins. Surely if everything is a choice and ones 'incorrect' choices mean that they're living wrong - you should be focusing solely on fixing your choices to commit various other sins in the bible. Many of which you're probably not even aware of due to lack of knowledge of the scriptures.


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I've heard that song and dance before that it's genetic, or whatever you want to call it, but it's still a choice to go there if one so chooses to do so! It's just like nuts and bolts, or pipes, you HAVE to have a male AND a female thread or fitting for it to work CORRECTLY!



I hope you have never used contraceptives then, or had sex for pleasure. Because that is unnatural and a man made intervention for a process that is there in order to create children. That is how the process works 'correctly', by interfering with that process to prevent pregnancy, you're not using the process properly at all and are no better than the gays you seem to love criticising.

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Moshe and Saul said it was prohibited. Rabi Yeshua didn't comment on the matter. (Other than to say you shouldn't condemn someone unless you are without sin...but many ignore that little gem)

Moshe said lots of other things were prohibited that nobody pays any attention to anymore. Eating ham and cheese together is quite clearly a choice. I missed where legislation is being passed on that matter. Things like that are dismissed as silly little customs of a superstitious religious group. I mean no offense by that. I am just pointing out the clear habit of making some 'sins' serious abominations that cause an otherwise kind and loving god to turn into an abusive 'father dearest' and other 'sins' are silly little trifles that no longer matter because we don't want them to.

I've read the Holy Bible several times from cover to cover. I never found where it explained the ranking system for sins that allowed this way of ignoring some and hilighting others.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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As I just explained to quade, there are two areas of life, one is physical and the other spiritual. Logic is the application of reason in the physical. Faith is the application of reason in the spiritual.

The law came from the Hebrew writings. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law in the Christian writings.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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As I just explained to quade, there are two areas of life, one is physical and the other spiritual. Logic is the application of reason in the physical. Faith is the application of reason in the spiritual.



Remember, I was Christian for most of my life - I know this very well.

Yet even then, why are you trying to attribute everyone's life to YOUR belief system. Surely just because you believe in a God that made those rules, you can't expect everyone else who doesn't believe in that God, to live by YOUR God's rules?

Even if you're so convinced by your God that you think everyone else is wrong. Shouldn't your conviction be strong enough so that you're living your life for your God, as God so intended you do. As opposed to trying to get everyone else to follow him when you yourself haven't even perfected it.

So long as a Christian is still committing sins (as every one does), they should not be looking at preventing others from committing their sins.

Taking a quote directly out of your own book, wouldn't your actions be going completely against the words "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

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Meso

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As I just explained to quade, there are two areas of life, one is physical and the other spiritual. Logic is the application of reason in the physical. Faith is the application of reason in the spiritual.



Remember, I was Christian for most of my life - I know this very well.

Yet even then, why are you trying to attribute everyone's life to YOUR belief system. Surely just because you believe in a God that made those rules, you can't expect everyone else who doesn't believe in that God, to live by YOUR God's rules?

Even if you're so convinced by your God that you think everyone else is wrong. Shouldn't your conviction be strong enough so that you're living your life for your God, as God so intended you do. As opposed to trying to get everyone else to follow him when you yourself haven't even perfected it.

So long as a Christian is still committing sins (as every one does), they should not be looking at preventing others from committing their sins.

Taking a quote directly out of your own book, wouldn't your actions be going completely against the words "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".



I believe you just changed the subject.

I can't get you or anyone else to do anything. We all have a free will. I like to share the blessings in my life and let others know that Christian journey is a better path.

Your choice, your consequences.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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