so now that the government can mandate that we buy something . . .

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

***

Quote

Because in all these other countries where there is some form of socialised health care, the governments have gone on and forced all kinds of other products to be bought....

Its a silly argument, at least not one based on reality.

Like you had some substance

The "we have so you should too" childish point??

You serious?

Uhmm, the part you quoted is my disagreement with regards to the slippery slope argument.

The rest of my post didn't say, we ave it so you should to. It contained my opinion that a civilised society should have a form of socialised health care.

And yes, I am serious about that part.

And my point is we were are much better off without the gov being involved at that level

MY OPINION is
We dont want it
We dont need it

You can have it if you wish
but leave us the hell out of it

And now
for the first time
the majority in this country
MY country
Know and believe that our President is the liar in chief
and this number of unpopularity will only continue to grow as we find out (what many of us knew and stated) that you cant keep your policy
you cant keep you dr
you will not save money
you will not have better hc

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Quote

I think we need to scrap the whole thing and come up with a basic necessities, medicare solution, that taxes everyone the same amount as what the minimum "healthcare plan" costs today and go from there. Then if you can, get on your own plan through your employer.

If I understand this correctly, it would be relatively similar to the Dutch system. There is a tax funded "basic" insurance. Though the tax is based on income and is progressive. Then additional coverage is available beyond that for those who so wish.

(Really also how the Ontario system works, though the Dutch sepearte out their premiums from the taxes, if I remember correctly).

I don't think it is a bad system, though obviously no system is perfect.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Quote

And now
for the first time
the majority in this country
MY country
Know and believe that our President is the liar in chief
and this number of unpopularity will only continue to grow as we find out (what many of us knew and stated) that you cant keep your policy
you cant keep you dr
you will not save money
you will not have better hc

In that case, the next election will be cake walks for Republicans. They should then be able to make all the necessary changes, or just repeal it completely. Isn't that how the system is supposed to work?

(and I highly doubt this is the first time in US history that the President has been a liar. My guess is, all of them have been liars. I know I have told a lie or two. If you are honest with yourself, I think maybe you can see you have told maybe one little white lie along the way too.....)

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

Quote

And now
for the first time
the majority in this country
MY country
Know and believe that our President is the liar in chief
and this number of unpopularity will only continue to grow as we find out (what many of us knew and stated) that you cant keep your policy
you cant keep you dr
you will not save money
you will not have better hc

In that case, the next election will be cake walks for Republicans. They should then be able to make all the necessary changes, or just repeal it completely. Isn't that how the system is supposed to work?

(and I highly doubt this is the first time in US history that the President has been a liar. My guess is, all of them have been liars. I know I have told a lie or two. If you are honest with yourself, I think maybe you can see you have told maybe one little white lie along the way too.....)

i agree for the most part
but his president, until lately get a free pass
to question him brings claims of being a racist
(according to Oprah)

any idea why he and the dems are trying to push the sign up for next year until after the elections?
I go an idea!

And how can a President just re-write law by chaning deadlines defined within a law?
Because to question him bring the race card again
fortunatly, this card has been played enough that people are starting to say fuck it, call me racist if you wish
but this is not about race

Oh, I am bet you have NEVER told a lie
well
only if it was necessary to achive an end
then it is ok
Right?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 212]

SkyDekker

Quote

I think we need to scrap the whole thing and come up with a basic necessities, medicare solution, that taxes everyone the same amount as what the minimum "healthcare plan" costs today and go from there. Then if you can, get on your own plan through your employer.

If I understand this correctly, it would be relatively similar to the Dutch system. There is a tax funded "basic" insurance. Though the tax is based on income and is progressive. Then additional coverage is available beyond that for those who so wish.

(Really also how the Ontario system works, though the Dutch separate out their premiums from the taxes, if I remember correctly).

I don't think it is a bad system, though obviously no system is perfect.

I think at this point, it is ALL we can do to salvage the freaking train wreck the current admin has created.

I'm not in disagreement with the idea. I just want it thoroughly thought out and not shoved down our throats.

I think we should be able to depress other programs that the pushers of this bill are proponents for to recoup losses they caused as well, but that is just my sense of justice kicking in to punish those that screwed everything up so bad.

In that light, I would also like an apology for the insults and hate speech spewed from Reid and Pelosi for what they said about the attempts to delay the roll out as it should have been delayed.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

If I understand this correctly, it would be relatively similar to the Dutch system. There is a tax funded "basic" insurance. Though the tax is based on income and is progressive. Then additional coverage is available beyond that for those who so wish.

BETTER

I don't like this, but it is better than the current plan.

1 - "basic" needs to be BASIC - essentially single payer "real" emergency room type coverage only, not health care, emergency room, major medical only

2 - tax should be flat, not progressive. everyone uses the same, everyone pays the same

the current system would have been able to transition much more easily to 'supplemental' policies that achieve more as desired by the customers



This whole - "if you like it, you can keep it" would have been much more truthful if it was really "if you like it, you can keep it. But if your current plan does not meet the minimums, you will likely need to purchase the difference between what you have now, and what you will be required to have to participate fairly with the rest of the country"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Quote

Oh, I am bet you have NEVER told a lie

Dude, do you read any of it? I already admitted in the part you quoted that I have told lies. Geez.

The rest of the post seems to eb anger at him being black and that nobody can quesiton that. Sorry, I don't agree with that premise and quite frankly, I don't care what Oprah says. I highly doubt the Supreme Court ruled how they did because they were afraid they would be called racsists.

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

Quote

Oh, I am bet you have NEVER told a lie

Dude, do you read any of it? I already admitted in the part you quoted that I have told lies. Geez.

The rest of the post seems to eb anger at him being black and that nobody can quesiton that. Sorry, I don't agree with that premise and quite frankly, I don't care what Oprah says. I highly doubt the Supreme Court ruled how they did because they were afraid they would be called racsists.

the SC ruled as they did by changing the premis of the argument

I am not angry about is color
I could care less
I care about policy and intent
Niether of his do I like

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

The rest of the post seems to eb anger at him being black and that nobody can quesiton that. Sorry, I don't agree with that premise and quite frankly, I don't care what Oprah says. I highly doubt the Supreme Court ruled how they did because they were afraid they would be called racsists.

1 - clearly the poster committed a hate crime (I mean, if "nobody can question that" it must be)

2 - clearly you committed a hate crime against Oprah (both a female and a minority, and most importantly, an actor - you can't doubt her. Though she is rich, so that's a tough call, you can't commit a hate crime against a rich person. tough call)

The Supreme Court? tough call - clearly they didn't commit a hate crime then???

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Stumpy 256]

rehmwa

I don't like this, but it is better than the current plan.

1 - "basic" needs to be BASIC - essentially single payer "real" emergency room type coverage only, not health care, emergency room, major medical only

2 - tax should be flat, not progressive. everyone uses the same, everyone pays the same

2 - agree.
1 - Not so much. Healthcare works best when people have access to preventative care as well and catch things early. Prevention is better than cure and all that.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[turtlespeed 212]

rehmwa

***
If I understand this correctly, it would be relatively similar to the Dutch system. There is a tax funded "basic" insurance. Though the tax is based on income and is progressive. Then additional coverage is available beyond that for those who so wish.

BETTER

I don't like this, but it is better than the current plan.

1 - "basic" needs to be BASIC - essentially single payer "real" emergency room type coverage only, not health care, emergency room, major medical only

2 - tax should be flat, not progressive. everyone uses the same, everyone pays the same

the current system would have been able to transition much more easily to 'supplemental' policies that achieve more as desired by the customers



This whole - "if you like it, you can keep it" would have been much more truthful if it was really "if you like it, you can keep it. But if your current plan does not meet the minimums, you will likely need to purchase the difference between what you have now, and what you will be required to have to participate fairly with the rest of the country"

Flat tax - for EVERYTHING and I think we have a deal.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rehmwa 2]

Stumpy

1 - Not so much. Healthcare works best when people have access to preventative care as well and catch things early. Prevention is better than cure and all that.

OK - define the minimum to achieve that. And get EVERYONE to agree with your definition

(enforce all your criteria without violating people's rights to choose for themselves how to live their lives)


I'll start - IMHO, preventative care starts with fitness and nutrition. Fitness = exercise. Health = how we eat. Let's give everyone a gym membership and create an eating plan for everyone. Force them to workout and eat like I think they must.



good luck

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Stumpy 256]

rehmwa

***1 - Not so much. Healthcare works best when people have access to preventative care as well and catch things early. Prevention is better than cure and all that.

OK - define the minimum to achieve that. And get EVERYONE to agree with your definition

(enforce all your criteria without violating people's rights to choose for themselves how to live their lives)



good luck

Get everyone to agree with ANYTHING - interesting concept. I'll do that and then I'm gonna go saddle up my unicorn.

It doesn't mean that people shouldn't try to improve things though.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Quote

2 - tax should be flat, not progressive. everyone uses the same, everyone pays the same

You and I will have to agree to disagree on this

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

Quote

2 - tax should be flat, not progressive. everyone uses the same, everyone pays the same

You and I will have to agree to disagree on this

no issues - I have a line too. But this item seems to me to be on the 'each person is responsible side'. Not the "publicly shared" side.

I wonder where to draw the line for purchasing a product though. Milk and Bread? homes and cars? Roads and public buildings?

there's always a line - and always a struggle where to put it

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 212]

Stumpy

******1 - Not so much. Healthcare works best when people have access to preventative care as well and catch things early. Prevention is better than cure and all that.

OK - define the minimum to achieve that. And get EVERYONE to agree with your definition

(enforce all your criteria without violating people's rights to choose for themselves how to live their lives)



good luck

Get everyone to agree with ANYTHING - interesting concept. I'll do that and then I'm gonna go saddle up my unicorn.

It doesn't mean that people shouldn't try to improve things though.

Can I have a bowl of her poop, I'm hungry.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 212]

SkyDekker

Quote

2 - tax should be flat, not progressive. everyone uses the same, everyone pays the same

You and I will have to agree to disagree on this

If you make more, your percentage paid should not go up, the amount you pay in already does that.
Why should you have to give a bigger piece of pie just because your pie is bigger?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rehmwa 2]

turtlespeed

If you make more, your percentage paid should not go up, the amount you pay in already does that.

as you note - even a flat "rate" is still progressive in amount, just not progressive in percentage

why pay more in amount (for the same product) - where would you draw that line? Loaf of bread? or roads and military?

(willie sutton is legit argument, but I wonder what people think is "right", not just practical or expeditious)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

Government requires you to buy a lot of things.

Name one thing that the Govt requires an individual to buy individually just because they exist.

[turtlespeed 212]

DaVinci

Quote

Government requires you to buy a lot of things.

Name one thing that the Govt requires an individual to buy individually just because they exist.

More specifically, what product or service does the government require a 27 yo to purchase, that does not drive, besides the redistribution engine named "Obamacare"?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

You are right, next you are going to be required to buy another product. Because in all these other countries where there is some form of socialised health care, the governments have gone on and forced all kinds of other products to be bought....

1. YET. Just because it has not happened, does not mean it will not happen. A perfect example was that at one point some people in England had the right to own weapons.

2. You are trying to compare socialized countries and the US. Totally different theories of government.

3. The US has a trend of going overboard on just about everything it does.

Quote

I don't know enough about Obama Care to discuss if it is the right way of implementing it,.....But, I am a believer in some form of socialised health care. I believe it to be a foundation of a civilized society.

The first thing you should know is that the ACA is nowhere NEAR socialized medicine. Socialized medicine provides all citizens with healthcare services regardless of their income bracket and *pays for it through taxes*. The ACA is designed to force every person in the United States to *acquire health insurance from private companies*. If your employer doesn't provide it then you must purchase it on your own - If you don't, you will be penalized and that penalty will be collected by IRS.

So the ACA is NOWHERE near socialized medicine. It is the govt making you buy a product from an individual company. If you do not, then they fine you.

Lets put this in a simple form:
P: People can't afford health care. They are finding that they can't afford insurance and the costs for those that can afford it are still rising.

Govt answer: Make everyone buy insurance!

So the problem is people can't afford it, so the solution is to make it mandatory? AND add in the additional cost of the govt running the program. For example just the amount spent on the website.

Given the proven history of US govt run programs with cost overruns and terrible service... I see no reason why anyone would think this program would be any different.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Quote

1. YET. Just because it has not happened, does not mean it will not happen. A perfect example was that at one point some people in England had the right to own weapons.

They still do....and a completely different argument.

Quote

2. You are trying to compare socialized countries and the US. Totally different theories of government.

Meh, Canada really isn't taht different from the US. The US has socialised aspects as well.

Quote

3. The US has a trend of going overboard on just about everything it does

Yes, the extremes on either side do appear to rule the roost.

The rest of the post I choose not to participate in. I simply don't know enough about the ACA as a whole to make a coherent argument.

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

The rest of the post I choose not to participate in. I simply don't know enough about the ACA as a whole to make a coherent argument.

that doesn't stop others....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,122]

rehmwa

***The rest of the post I choose not to participate in. I simply don't know enough about the ACA as a whole to make a coherent argument.

that doesn't stop others....

sometimes it doesn't even stop me....

[kelpdiver 2]

turtlespeed

More specifically, what product or service does the government require a 27 yo to purchase, that does not drive, besides the redistribution engine named "Obamacare"?

Social Security comes to mind. Just as every citizen will eventually need retirement income, every citizen will use health care.

I find this argument about ACA the least compelling. People are using health care without insurance, and people with insurance are still paying for that first group. This same problem drove most states to mandate liability insurance coverage for drivers (or the setting of a cash bond to cover it).

I find it more more compelling to attack the roll out, the hand waving around costs and indirect taxations to fund it, or that it doesn't little to control costs other than removing the uninsured component.