The most tech savvy administration...

[rushmc 18]

ianmdrennan

***

Quote

this is a failure of the company hired to do the job, and the likely result of cost vs quality that factors into picking contractors.

I disagree. It is a failure of the government for choosing the companies that don't deliver. Hell - I outsource contracts all the time and if I pick the wrong vendor and the project does not come in on time and budget, the Board of Directors blames me and not the vendor.

In this analogy, the taxpayers are the Board of Directors.

I'd bet good money the president didn't pick the contractor.....which is why gravitymasters analogy doesn't fly

So, this makes him imune or smarter?

or

Is this a failure of leadership?

sorry, but him not knowing and or not being involved shows even greater ineptness IMO

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 212]

rushmc

******

Quote

this is a failure of the company hired to do the job, and the likely result of cost vs quality that factors into picking contractors.

I disagree. It is a failure of the government for choosing the companies that don't deliver. Hell - I outsource contracts all the time and if I pick the wrong vendor and the project does not come in on time and budget, the Board of Directors blames me and not the vendor.

In this analogy, the taxpayers are the Board of Directors.

I'd bet good money the president didn't pick the contractor.....which is why gravitymasters analogy doesn't fly

So, this makes him imune or smarter?

or

Is this a failure of leadership?

sorry, but him not knowing and or not being involved shows even greater ineptness IMO

Especially since it is his signature achievement. If you have something you want to succeed, you monitor and manage it . . . the fact is he wants it to fail miserably, and he wants the outcome. He wants single payer.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,116]

Because software work, particularly large complex projects, cannot be completely specced out to the last detail before they're bid. So whenever you figure out one of those details, you have to see if it impacts anything else in the large complex project, and determine the cost of the change needed.

Sometimes the interpretation of the requirements differs between the customer and the contractor; obviously if the contractor had one idea (and bid it), and the customer had another, there's a disagreement that has to be resolved.

These are all part of doing business in any large-scale software project, just as (I'm sure) they are for any other sort of new construction or remodeling job; after all, customers and contractors disagree there, too, don't they?

And in software, we can also be talking about technology evolving as you go. All of a sudden, if you don't change, you're behind the times, if you do, you've driven the expense up, and you're on the bleeding edge.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,116]

The buck stops there. There's no way that he's going to personally supervise this or be involved in it (if nothing else, he doesn't have the job skills for direct management of a massive software project). But he sets the tone, and the tone for something like this needs to be "honesty is better than hearing what I want to."

With honesty, management might hear early that the software can be built, but it's going to be ugly, or be missing some pieces that have to be done by people, or be limited to one sector of the population or of the country. But if upper management says "this will work" and then turns it over to the middle managers, they'll set up metrics that prove it's going according to schedule, because the penalty for being late is worse than the penalty for being incomplete.

It really goes with starting with what's most important, and then being willing to accept tradeoffs to preserve that. Being told that you can have cheap, fast, and quality (which every manager wants to have, and every contractor wants to promise so they get the work) is just smoke.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gravitymaster 0]

I can assure you that if you give the people who built Amazons or Ebays website $100 million dollars, they could have built a first class website that would have worked well from day one.

The President of my website designer company told me he could have done it for less than $1 million.

When are people going to understand that the government mucks up almost everything they get involved in? When are people going to realize that a government program is nothing but a bottomless money pit that becomes corrupted with shady contractors, corrupt politicians etc.?

[turtlespeed 212]

wmw999

The buck stops there. There's no way that he's going to personally supervise this or be involved in it (if nothing else, he doesn't have the job skills for direct management of a massive software project). But he sets the tone, and the tone for something like this needs to be "honesty is better than hearing what I want to."

With honesty, management might hear early that the software can be built, but it's going to be ugly, or be missing some pieces that have to be done by people, or be limited to one sector of the population or of the country. But if upper management says "this will work" and then turns it over to the middle managers, they'll set up metrics that prove it's going according to schedule, because the penalty for being late is worse than the penalty for being incomplete.

It really goes with starting with what's most important, and then being willing to accept tradeoffs to preserve that. Being told that you can have cheap, fast, and quality (which every manager wants to have, and every contractor wants to promise so they get the work) is just smoke.

Wendy P.

That is the rub.
He lacks the "job skills for direct management" of anything short of a port-a-potty.

He can't pick a competent staff because he himself is not competent.

He lies as much ass he breathes.

He should own it, he is pushing it at us, so he needs to own it and stop making excuses.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,116]

GWB also didn't have the skills for direct management of a large-scale software project. Neither did Clinton or Reagan, and before then software projects just weren't as long.

As far as "any idiot could do better with $1,000,000," well it's always easier in retrospect, after the mistakes have been made. It's actually making the mistakes in interpretation that's expensive.

It's a giant clusterfuck, and it's on Obama's watch. He's responsible, but as a tone-setting manager, not as a software development supervisor.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 212]

wmw999

GWB also didn't have the skills for direct management of a large-scale software project. Neither did Clinton or Reagan, and before then software projects just weren't as long.

As far as "any idiot could do better with $1,000,000," well it's always easier in retrospect, after the mistakes have been made. It's actually making the mistakes in interpretation that's expensive.

It's a giant clusterfuck, and it's on Obama's watch. He's responsible, but as a tone-setting manager, not as a software development supervisor.

Wendy P.

His competency in choosing competent people is the problem.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DaVinci 0]

CygnusX-1

I don't recall anyone saying that Obama sat down behind a computer and designed (or is hosting) the website. As a matter of fact, I don't recall anyone in government doing anything with the website. Didn't they contract the design out to a company? This appears to be more of a failure of the private sector than government...

I do recall Obama blasting Romney for sending jobs out side the US.... Yet who was hired to fix this problem? Ah, a Canadian company.

Or should I say "Eh, a Canadian company"?

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Quote

His competency in choosing competent people is the problem.

Since the American people "choose" their president, doesn't the buck stop with them?

Seems like you guys have been sucking majorly at choosing competent people.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

DaVinci

***I don't recall anyone saying that Obama sat down behind a computer and designed (or is hosting) the website. As a matter of fact, I don't recall anyone in government doing anything with the website. Didn't they contract the design out to a company? This appears to be more of a failure of the private sector than government...

I do recall Obama blasting Romney for sending jobs out side the US.... Yet who was hired to fix this problem? Ah, a Canadian company.

Or should I say "Eh, a Canadian company"?

It would be:

A Canadian company, eh.

[turtlespeed 212]

SkyDekker

Quote

His competency in choosing competent people is the problem.

Since the American people "choose" their president, doesn't the buck stop with them?

Seems like you guys have been sucking majorly at choosing competent people.

He absolutely wasn't my choice. Blame those other people.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 212]

SkyDekker

******I don't recall anyone saying that Obama sat down behind a computer and designed (or is hosting) the website. As a matter of fact, I don't recall anyone in government doing anything with the website. Didn't they contract the design out to a company? This appears to be more of a failure of the private sector than government...

I do recall Obama blasting Romney for sending jobs out side the US.... Yet who was hired to fix this problem? Ah, a Canadian company.

Or should I say "Eh, a Canadian company"?

It would be:

A Canadian company, eh.

And the company performed as good as it did before while trying to build a gun registry website.

I see this as just a little more foreshadowing.

We are in for one hell of a bad experience.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kelpdiver 2]

Gravitymaster

I can assure you that if you give the people who built Amazons or Ebays website $100 million dollars, they could have built a first class website that would have worked well from day one.

Amazon and Ebay, like so many of the big internet companies, started small and grew over time, learning lessons along the way. This web service had tens of millions of customers on day 1, across every state. To be more like the other two you mentioned, they would open up first for Idaho, then Arkansas, then a bigger state like Ohio, and then ramp up to the rest.

Quote

The President of my website designer company told me he could have done it for less than $1 million.

Easy to say from the sidelines. But doesn't stand to any meaningful evaluation. Having worked at numerous companies in the land where this all came from, I can tell you that a million dollars would be a serious underbid for this project.

[ianmdrennan 2]

kelpdiver

***I can assure you that if you give the people who built Amazons or Ebays website $100 million dollars, they could have built a first class website that would have worked well from day one.

Amazon and Ebay, like so many of the big internet companies, started small and grew over time, learning lessons along the way. This web service had tens of millions of customers on day 1, across every state. To be more like the other two you mentioned, they would open up first for Idaho, then Arkansas, then a bigger state like Ohio, and then ramp up to the rest.

Quote

The President of my website designer company told me he could have done it for less than $1 million.

Easy to say from the sidelines. But doesn't stand to any meaningful evaluation. Having worked at numerous companies in the land where this all came from, I can tell you that a million dollars would be a serious underbid for this project.

agreed. 1 mill....lol....laughable and shows the incompetence of gravity's "tech" guy. Considering the integration pieces, etc that would have to go into the marketplace......

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Gravitymaster 0]

How many websites like this have you built? My guess is none. How much should it have cost? My guess is you have no idea. Thanks, but I'll go with someone who has built thousands of websites over an arm chair pseudo-techie.

How many years of premiums would $100 million have bought for the 15% of the population this travesty is supposed to cover.

[Stumpy 256]

Gravitymaster

How many websites like this have you built? My guess is none. Thanks, but I'll go with someone who has built thousands of websites over an arm chair techie.

How many years of premiums would $100 million have bought for the 15% of the population this travesty is supposed to cover.

I don't know about Ian, but I have done the solution architecture for a number of large government IT projects, although none anywhere near as big as this. Your tech guy is full of shit.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Gravitymaster 0]

Stumpy

***How many websites like this have you built? My guess is none. Thanks, but I'll go with someone who has built thousands of websites over an arm chair techie.

How many years of premiums would $100 million have bought for the 15% of the population this travesty is supposed to cover.

I don't know about Ian, but I have done the solution architecture for a number of large government IT projects, although none anywhere near as big as this. Your tech guy is full of shit.

How much should it have cost?

[Gravitymaster 0]

Stumpy

***How many websites like this have you built? My guess is none. Thanks, but I'll go with someone who has built thousands of websites over an arm chair techie.

How many years of premiums would $100 million have bought for the 15% of the population this travesty is supposed to cover.

I don't know about Ian, but I have done the solution architecture for a number of large government IT projects, although none anywhere near as big as this. Your tech guy is full of shit.

I'm sure he would say you are full of shit. But what does he know, he only does it for a living.

[Stumpy 256]

Gravitymaster

******How many websites like this have you built? My guess is none. Thanks, but I'll go with someone who has built thousands of websites over an arm chair techie.

How many years of premiums would $100 million have bought for the 15% of the population this travesty is supposed to cover.

I don't know about Ian, but I have done the solution architecture for a number of large government IT projects, although none anywhere near as big as this. Your tech guy is full of shit.

How much should it have cost?

With: writing the code itself, procuring hardware, building and running the infrastructure, (don't forget you can't just do this once, you need redundancy and backup) managing all the integration points, writing middleware, changing the connecting systems that need to be changed, performing the BA work to define it, defining the system architecture, running unit, system, integration and user testing (where it sounds like they skimped btw!), pen testing, documenting and QA of code and architecture......

.....No idea. But 9 figures is certainly in the ballpark.

The way this usually works is a procurement weenie will go out to the market for a price, the market will come back with a price, and the procurement guy will go "too expensive, the public will never accept that, cut it in half"
Then everyone is surprised/ shocked/ outraged when it goes over budget and the procurement guy blames the contractor.

Fun and games.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[marks2065 0]

Stumpy

*********How many websites like this have you built? My guess is none. Thanks, but I'll go with someone who has built thousands of websites over an arm chair techie.

How many years of premiums would $100 million have bought for the 15% of the population this travesty is supposed to cover.

I don't know about Ian, but I have done the solution architecture for a number of large government IT projects, although none anywhere near as big as this. Your tech guy is full of shit.

How much should it have cost?

With: writing the code itself, procuring hardware, building and running the infrastructure, (don't forget you can't just do this once, you need redundancy and backup) managing all the integration points, writing middleware, changing the connecting systems that need to be changed, performing the BA work to define it, defining the system architecture, running unit, system, integration and user testing (where it sounds like they skimped btw!), pen testing, documenting and QA of code and architecture......

.....No idea. But 9 figures is certainly in the ballpark.

The way this usually works is a procurement weenie will go out to the market for a price, the market will come back with a price, and the procurement guy will go "too expensive, the public will never accept that, cut it in half"
Then everyone is surprised/ shocked/ outraged when it goes over budget and the procurement guy blames the contractor.

Fun and games.

If they followed those guidelines it means they are still 400 million over budget. A smart person would not hire a company that failed on a 50 million dollar project to do a 500 million dollar project. A smart person would find a company that has already designed a large and complicated web site and get there opinion. Kathleen S. is not a smart person. The person that put her there is equally dumb.

[kelpdiver 2]

Gravitymaster

I'm sure he would say you are full of shit. But what does he know, he only does it for a living.

And it's what I do for a living - and my environment handles a billion transactions a day. My prior company managed trillions of dollars. Your guy is full of shit. The kind of jobs that get sent his way are small potatoes.

A wild guess, with no involvement, is that user testing was short cutted because they were waiting on the disparate data from all the different service providers yet had a hard deadline they had to meet. Which is pretty how how startups work as well, with pretty spotty results in the early phase.

[wmw999 2,116]

I'm sure it was an open procurement; he should have bid for the job, he could have made 1000% profit and still have been the lowest bidder.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 212]

wmw999

I'm sure it was an open procurement; he should have bid for the job, he could have made 1000% profit and still have been the lowest bidder.

Wendy P.

Question:
How, if even our local gov't has to produce bidding documents for anything over $4500.00 does Obama get away with allowing a No Bid contract through?

Isn't there ANY responsibility to other peoples money?

How is that justified?

How much money is getting in a few years as a "thank you"?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[OHCHUTE 0]

CygnusX-1

I don't recall anyone saying that Obama sat down behind a computer and designed (or is hosting) the website. As a matter of fact, I don't recall anyone in government doing anything with the website. Didn't they contract the design out to a company? This appears to be more of a failure of the private sector than government...

The responsibility rests which those who select the vendor and those who make changes to the software after functional specs have been decided upon. There's so many rules I can't see how any business analysis could have even completed the report in time for software development to even start. Way too many rules, too many players, and too many suppliers= fail.